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WildBill
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12-04-2009, 10:34 PM
Post subject: Donk betting
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#1 (permalink)
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Two Pair
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 32
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Since there have been a lot of interesting hands posted last 2 weeks and a lot of responses included a flop donk bet.
In what situations, hands, boards do you generally opt for a donk bet?
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Well speaking very generally, a donk bet should have a polarized range. You should either do it when you have:
(1) a villain who raised pre-flop but who you think completely missed and can be bet off his hand (usually because the board is scary)
or
(2) a strong hand that has most of the equity in the pot and a villain who is likely to have a second-best hand or is willing to semi-bluff or bluff raise you, thereby making the donk-3-bet more +EV than a check-raise.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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don't flat PFR's OOP. ezgame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
don't flat PFR's OOP. ezgame
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99 in the big blind verses an utg raise
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Donks will bet all in depending on position i've found... lots will fold in late position early.
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Then you got these donks that just push every hand till they lose.. makes no sense.
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We've all been there.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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There's a reason they call it Donk betting
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
don't flat PFR's OOP. ezgame
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99 in the big blind verses an utg raise |
i was def exaggerating. my point was A) the smallest leak you can have in all of poker is the inability to make fancy plays OOP without the initiative at micro limits and B) the question's really general and will benefit from hand histories a lot more than how the question's presented here.
[...that's my segway...]
villain who opened PF is 20/14 over 50 hands, basically no history between us, so i just assume he's a straightforward reg for now.
BU is a 80/15 fish. F2Cbet is like 42 at this point.
i figure villain isn't going to cbet this flop unless he hit it 'cause he's 3-way with a fish left to act, so c/r doesn't seem great. i lead out with the intention of barrelling if only one player folds and my equity improves (a 7, 5, 4 or diamond).
thoughts?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($53.85)
UTG ($54.65)
MP ($58.40)
CO ($97.70)
Button ($99.50)
Hero (SB) ($57.15)
Preflop: Hero is SB with  , 
2 folds, CO bets $2, Button calls $2, Hero calls $1.75, 1 fold
Flop: ($6.50)  ,  ,  (3 players)
Hero bets $3.50, [color=#666666]
if the taggy player calls and the fish folds, should i barrel the  ? i'm assuming i should just c/f if the fish calls and the turn blanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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I played some $300 NL while waiting for my limit table to open up today at Hustler. I donk bet in a hand.
Hero is in the BB with 6c4c. Blinds are $2 and $5.
UTG, who has a stack of about $220 and isn't very positionally aware and seems to raise whenever he has "good" cards, raises to $15. MP1, MP3, CO, and SB all call it. Hero calls.
Flop is Ah9c7c. SB checks, Hero donks for $60.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Donk betting is basically the same thing as any other bet. You have a range, they have a range, and you bet.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
UTG, who has a stack of about $220 and isn't very positionally aware and seems to raise whenever he has "good" cards, raises to $15. MP1, MP3, CO, and SB all call it. Hero calls.
Flop is Ah9c7c. SB checks, Hero donks for $60.
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This is a very different situation than a heads-up pot because you can't expect the PFR to bet into a large field. That said, I like you bet more if you're second to last to act. As the first to act, checking has more merit.
The answer to this problem is found by thinking about it backwards. Why do we c-bet? What are you representing when you c-bet? Why to thinking players give c-bets any credit?
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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I donk bet alot
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
I played some $300 NL while waiting for my limit table to open up today at Hustler. I donk bet in a hand.
Hero is in the BB with 6c4c. Blinds are $2 and $5.
UTG, who has a stack of about $220 and isn't very positionally aware and seems to raise whenever he has "good" cards, raises to $15. MP1, MP3, CO, and SB all call it. Hero calls.
Flop is Ah9c7c. SB checks, Hero donks for $60.
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I hope you don't mind if i pick your brain for a second. I'm not real sure how 300nl plays but wouldn't a check be better from your position?
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
don't flat PFR's OOP. ezgame
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99 in the big blind verses an utg raise |
i was def exaggerating. my point was A) the smallest leak you can have in all of poker is the inability to make fancy plays OOP without the initiative at micro limits and B) the question's really general and will benefit from hand histories a lot more than how the question's presented here.
[...that's my segway...]
villain who opened PF is 20/14 over 50 hands, basically no history between us, so i just assume he's a straightforward reg for now.
BU is a 80/15 fish. F2Cbet is like 42 at this point.
i figure villain isn't going to cbet this flop unless he hit it 'cause he's 3-way with a fish left to act, so c/r doesn't seem great. i lead out with the intention of barrelling if only one player folds and my equity improves (a 7, 5, 4 or diamond).
thoughts?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($53.85)
UTG ($54.65)
MP ($58.40)
CO ($97.70)
Button ($99.50)
Hero (SB) ($57.15)
Preflop: Hero is SB with ,
2 folds, CO bets $2, Button calls $2, Hero calls $1.75, 1 fold
Flop: ($6.50) , , (3 players)
Hero bets $3.50, [color=#666666]
if the taggy player calls and the fish folds, should i barrel the ? i'm assuming i should just c/f if the fish calls and the turn blanks |
I'm a bit conservative, but I don't like the call pre-flop... as played, I'm a bit too conservative to consider this... if the taggy player calls or re-pops you, likely he's ahead... and then you are considering betting the A turn? hmm... I see where you are putting him in a bad spot, but you're only getting called/raised by better hands, isn't that pretty -EV?
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Outlaw
There's a reason they call it Donk betting
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Agreed. We're all donks for not using it enough
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WildBill
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Two Pair
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 32
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
I donk bet alot
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I don't. That's why this thread.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
I played some $300 NL while waiting for my limit table to open up today at Hustler. I donk bet in a hand.
Hero is in the BB with 6c4c. Blinds are $2 and $5.
UTG, who has a stack of about $220 and isn't very positionally aware and seems to raise whenever he has "good" cards, raises to $15. MP1, MP3, CO, and SB all call it. Hero calls.
Flop is Ah9c7c. SB checks, Hero donks for $60.
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I hope you don't mind if i pick your brain for a second. I'm not real sure how 300nl plays but wouldn't a check be better from your position? |
I figured (1) I would be representing the ace on the flop, which could scare everyone off (including the pre-flop raiser, who's range includes a bunch of stuff other than aces), (2) if the pre-flop raiser called me, I was still getting good odds on my bet to hit a flush which he wasn't likely to be able to re-draw and beat, and I might even be able to value bet him with his ace because my hand would be concealed by my aggression, and (3) if I get multiple callers, I build a big pot if I hit my flush.
But bear in mind, I am not really a big no limit player (I play mostly limit), so I'd very much like to hear what is wrong with my thinking.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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LawDude, I agree with Fnord, in that I essentially don't even put this in the category of donk betting. First off, it's a live game, so villain prolly doesn't cbet in the first place. Second off, once the whole table calls his raise, he's not going to lead out with any sort of high frequency and he's certainly not going to do it with the vulnerable part of his range. So, in other words, the whole point of the "check to the PFR" mentality that pervades poker is based on the fact that the PFR bets so frequently and with an oftentimes weak range. in the spot you posted, though, NO ONE has the initiative in this hand, so i barely consider this a donk bet. this decision kinda just boils down to whether or not you want to lead out with your combo draw and nothing else.
monty, i obviously know that my 5-high is behind if he calls the flop bet. i'm not trying to be a jerk or get you on a linguistic technicality but just wanted to get some clarification on what you mean and thoughts on my FE.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
I played some $300 NL while waiting for my limit table to open up today at Hustler. I donk bet in a hand.
Hero is in the BB with 6c4c. Blinds are $2 and $5.
UTG, who has a stack of about $220 and isn't very positionally aware and seems to raise whenever he has "good" cards, raises to $15. MP1, MP3, CO, and SB all call it. Hero calls.
Flop is Ah9c7c. SB checks, Hero donks for $60.
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I hope you don't mind if i pick your brain for a second. I'm not real sure how 300nl plays but wouldn't a check be better from your position? |
I figured (1) I would be representing the ace on the flop, which could scare everyone off (including the pre-flop raiser, who's range includes a bunch of stuff other than aces), (2) if the pre-flop raiser called me, I was still getting good odds on my bet to hit a flush which he wasn't likely to be able to re-draw and beat, and I might even be able to value bet him with his ace because my hand would be concealed by my aggression, and (3) if I get multiple callers, I build a big pot if I hit my flush.
But bear in mind, I am not really a big no limit player (I play mostly limit), so I'd very much like to hear what is wrong with my thinking. |
We far be it from me to try and correct someone who plays several levels above me. so understand i'm not coming from the same mindset as you are. I play against different opponents that likely don't react the same way as the people you play. I hate the idea of semi bluffing in ep. Cause i ain't scaring nobody away. I just open the pot to to be re raised. One thing i have been trying is my c-raising range on the flop. That's probably not very smart against a utg raise.
However you said utg is not positionally aware so perhaps we need not respect his all that much. In a nutshell i would check cause i don't wanna get raised. If pf raiser bet i would take a long look at his c-betting frequency. If it is really high i would consider pulling off the c-raise if it is low i would just call. Also i wanna see what the other players that went to the flop are going to do. I'm sure you have a stronger game then me seeing as how you have made it to 300nl but that is how i would play the hand.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
I played some $300 NL while waiting for my limit table to open up today at Hustler. I donk bet in a hand.
Hero is in the BB with 6c4c. Blinds are $2 and $5.
UTG, who has a stack of about $220 and isn't very positionally aware and seems to raise whenever he has "good" cards, raises to $15. MP1, MP3, CO, and SB all call it. Hero calls.
Flop is Ah9c7c. SB checks, Hero donks for $60.
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I hope you don't mind if i pick your brain for a second. I'm not real sure how 300nl plays but wouldn't a check be better from your position? |
I figured (1) I would be representing the ace on the flop, which could scare everyone off (including the pre-flop raiser, who's range includes a bunch of stuff other than aces), (2) if the pre-flop raiser called me, I was still getting good odds on my bet to hit a flush which he wasn't likely to be able to re-draw and beat, and I might even be able to value bet him with his ace because my hand would be concealed by my aggression, and (3) if I get multiple callers, I build a big pot if I hit my flush.
But bear in mind, I am not really a big no limit player (I play mostly limit), so I'd very much like to hear what is wrong with my thinking. |
We far be it from me to try and correct someone who plays several levels above me. so understand i'm not coming from the same mindset as you are. I play against different opponents that likely don't react the same way as the people you play. I hate the idea of semi bluffing in ep. Cause i ain't scaring nobody away. I just open the pot to to be re raised. One thing i have been trying is my c-raising range on the flop. That's probably not very smart against a utg raise.
However you said utg is not positionally aware so perhaps we need not respect his all that much. In a nutshell i would check cause i don't wanna get raised. If pf raiser bet i would take a long look at his c-betting frequency. If it is really high i would consider pulling off the c-raise if it is low i would just call. Also i wanna see what the other players that went to the flop are going to do. I'm sure you have a stronger game then me seeing as how you have made it to 300nl but that is how i would play the hand. |
You should know that $300 live games are probably below your level. These guys are mostly fish and poor players. And I certainly could not play competitively with very good no limit players.
That said, there's $90 in the pot when I donk the $60. That makes $150. Worst case scenario is that UTG is going to shove his $220 all in (and I don't think that is that likely unless he crushed the flop). Well-- (1) if he does that, I know where I am at, and have to put him on a range, but (2) that's going to give me a $160 call to win $530, which is correct odds on a flush draw. Counting my $60 donk, it's $220 total on the street to wih $530, which is slightly incorrect odds on a flush draw, but again, you have to discount that against the low probability that he's going to shove.
Seems to me that unless I am up against a set (which has a big potential for redraws) or a bigger flush draw (highly unlikely), I am in pretty good shape even in the unlikely worst case scenario, right?
Having said all that, I see the merits of the check-raise or check-call too-- you are getting much better implied odds if the raiser c-bets or someone else bets and others come along. You might be able to trap them into the pot.
So the real question is, as you say, whether we pick up enough fold equity to make up for the potential loss in implied odds. If we don't, we shouldn't be donking.
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