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does anyone here fold?.. or should i have shoved the flop...

  
 
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xX zorrito Xx
Old 09-27-2008, 10:47 PM     Post subject: does anyone here fold?.. or should i have shoved the flop... #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

CO ($1.65)
Button ($1.49)
SB ($13)
BB ($9.83)
UTG ($5.13)
Hero (UTG+1) ($15.55)
MP1 ($16.59)
MP2 ($11.27)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with ,
UTG calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.25, MP1 raises to $0.75, 6 folds, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.62) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, MP1 raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1

at this point i put him on aces or kings and i was really telling myself... please don't let me see an ace or a king on the turn cause that's what i think he has... if he has kings then the ace will slow him down...

Turn: ($4.62) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $2.50, Hero raises to $5, MP1 raises to $7.50, Hero...

does anyone else here fold?..
 
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Fnord
Old 09-27-2008, 11:10 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Wow, I would actually fold here.

That said, re-raise the flop. Money is too deep to shove. So many cards will kill your action and it's pretty obvious what he has.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Ragnar4
Old 09-28-2008, 12:48 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Moreover,

Why did you bet such a small amount into the flop? PSB's make bigger pots, and there are a tiny few scare cards that can come that make your set look like its foldable.

And when your opponent raises, you really need to get it as close to AI as you possibly can, so the Ace gets paid off reguardless.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:50 AM #4 (permalink)  
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If you put him on aces or kings just shove the flop because he'll call or at least pop it up some
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spoonitnow
Old 09-28-2008, 04:27 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
If you put him on aces or kings just shove the flop because he'll call or at least pop it up some
I completely disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Old 09-28-2008, 06:47 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
If you put him on aces or kings just shove the flop because he'll call or at least pop it up some
I completely disagree.
thank you sir....
 
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xX zorrito Xx
Old 09-28-2008, 06:49 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Moreover,

Why did you bet such a small amount into the flop? PSB's make bigger pots, and there are a tiny few scare cards that can come that make your set look like its foldable.

And when your opponent raises, you really need to get it as close to AI as you possibly can, so the Ace gets paid off reguardless.
the purpose of the slightly less than half the pot bet in the flop was to confirm my instincts... he could've re raised me with TT, JJ, AK, AA, KK... clearly not QQ since there's one on the flop... if he popped me on the flop significantly then i'd know for sure he has aces or kings...
 
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Old 09-28-2008, 07:28 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
If you put him on aces or kings just shove the flop because he'll call or at least pop it up some
I completely disagree.
I wrote that and THEN I saw the stack sizes
so then I went back and added the last part of the post

But is anyone really folding AA or KK in that spot after a normal raise? You can't really shove with those stack sizes, though

so is profit on later streets going to be on average higher? Let's plan the hand

Actually, here's how I would play it:

On the flop, I would check/raise. This is because if the villain has missed overcards and not AA/KK we want to get that flop bet out of him. There are two possibilities:

A) He 3-bets us because he thinks we have AQ or something.
B) He simply calls.

If the villain folds AA or KK here that's super easy to exploit. Just check/raise every hand.

Well, if he 3-bets us he's super-aggressive and we want to call. Probably get it in by the river with no problems.

If he calls our check/raise, he would have probably bet something like a dollar on the flop, we'd checkraise to about 3.50. That's putting a third of the our stack in. Then on a safe turn and river we can make two pot sized bets getting us all-in on the river.

Playing it by donking .50 cents is not good imo.
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spoonitnow
Old 09-28-2008, 12:49 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 The flop bet isn't really that bad and gets more value from AK when you still have enough wiggle room to get KK+ to stack off later in the hand with PSBs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Old 09-28-2008, 03:13 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I can see possibly getting it in before the turn. You got 3-bet OOP at $5NL which typically means AA/KK (occasionally QQ/JJ/AK) at this level. You flop a set of queens with the pot at $1.62. Can I ask why you under-bet this flop? Throw out a PSB. You currently hold the nuts and any bet will be representing the Q. If you bet the pot, we're looking at a pot size of $3.24. Then, if you get re-raised again (to 3x your bet) the pot would be $8.10. We've already committed half our stack if we just call. This is where Ild push over the top if the hand played out like this. But it didn't because you bet light on the flop.
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SiCK_Boy
Old 10-03-2008, 07:04 AM #11 (permalink)  

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Is there any reason why nobody seems to put the villain on AKs or AQs in diamonds? That gives him two overcards to the queen with AK, or top pair with the AQ, plus a nut flush draw.

The fact that the hero only called the pre-flop bet means he doesn't have kings or aces, but he could have put you on JJ or some high cards combination.

And his raise to 7,50 $ after the turn looks more like a value-bet than a tentative to scare you away from the pot.
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Old 10-03-2008, 07:41 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiCK_Boy
Is there any reason why nobody seems to put the villain on AKs or AQs in diamonds? That gives him two overcards to the queen with AK, or top pair with the AQ, plus a nut flush draw.

The fact that the hero only called the pre-flop bet means he doesn't have kings or aces, but he could have put you on JJ or some high cards combination.

And his raise to 7,50 $ after the turn looks more like a value-bet than a tentative to scare you away from the pot.
Because you're bad
j/k :D

anyway, nobody would do something as retarded as min-raising a min-raise without the stone-cold nuts.
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WillburForce
Old 10-03-2008, 02:12 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 are people seriously suggesting folding?

This is $5nl. He could have anything - which yes includes AA, but FOLDING???

I could poss find a fold at $50nl, but no way at $5nl.

I'd shove over on turn. if he has AA shrug it off. Its a cooler.

And I'd have defo re-raised the flop.
Normski
 
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:50 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by WillburForce
are people seriously suggesting folding?

This is $5nl. He could have anything - which yes includes AA, but FOLDING???

I could poss find a fold at $50nl, but no way at $5nl.

I'd shove over on turn. if he has AA shrug it off. Its a cooler.

And I'd have defo re-raised the flop.
Why shove over? Just flat his minraise and hope to hit quads
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oskar
Old 10-03-2008, 04:18 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 I respect spoonitnow's opinion obviously, but how can you even think about folding? AQ, or Ax with a flushdraw isn't that much less likely for him to have, and at this level he might very well just have a flushdraw.
There are many players at this level who only minraise, and obviously it's a great strategy against some guys because they will fold just about anything to a minraise.
How can you possibly ever put an unknown on such a tight range?
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aka_red
Old 10-03-2008, 07:02 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I'm not folding.
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Fnord
Old 10-03-2008, 07:42 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillburForce
I could poss find a fold at $50nl, but no way at $5nl.
Against more predictable opponents you find a fold here, independent of stakes. Against stronger and/or more erratic your opponents you can't ever fold this. That said, I'm almost always re-raising to commit on the flop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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