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bbqsquirrel
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01-12-2007, 10:52 PM
Post subject: Do you believe in the value shove?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 260
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I find that at the low/micro NL, a straight-forward overbet shove (rather than cold-calls, check-raises and value bets) will often allow you to extract the most money when you have a really good hand. A main reason IMO is opponent out of disbelief. "Overbet must mean bluff. Why would he want to overbet and scare away people with a monster?"
The value shove works best when you suspect or know (e.g. he check-raised you on flop) opponent has good but losing hand i.e. a big pair preflop, or TP / an overpair postflop.
The value shove also prevents one other thing. If an opponent called a wrong sized (but not all-in) bet, outdrew me and still got the rest of my stack, I would likely go on tilt.
Here are some examples, the 1st 6 all AA PFAIs. Look what my opponents called me in some cases:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?730139
http://www.pokerhand.org/?720717
http://www.pokerhand.org/?720718
http://www.pokerhand.org/?712745
http://www.pokerhand.org/?688103
http://www.pokerhand.org/?608529
http://www.pokerhand.org/?717655 c-betting on flop, gutshot catch on turn.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?587053 a hand that I posted before. Set of 4s on flop.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?652540 shoving some obscure 2-pair on turn against AA
http://www.pokerhand.org/?706278 set with 44, got bad-beaten, but that's not the point
http://www.pokerhand.org/?712326 fullhouse with KK on a KAA board against Ace-rag
http://www.pokerhand.org/?688111 set with 55 against a retarded mouse.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?574583 set with 55 vs. TPTK
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Slash
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 181
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I use this play alot (I play low limit though when I play ring games). I find that people call with TPTK and Draws not getting odds. If they all fold to my push, I will do it again later when I get a hand and after a couple times I will get a call and get paid off. After I pull it off once I chill out with it though.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I actually disagree. I think $25-$50 might be the stakes where this works the least. You are playing a lot of weak/tight players who may suspect a push is a bluff but will be unwilling to call it without strong cards or a top read. I nkow this, I'm one of them. And I often try it, and almost never get called - to the extent that I've been experimenting with underbets on the river as I'm sick of being folded to.
I dunno, I may just be experiencing a reaction to my specific aggression, but I think weakness/prudence/fear is the defining characteristic of (the average player at) these stakes. Anyone care to discuss?
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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I think this might be the best way to go even at 25 & 50, but you have to set up yr image first. If you haven't showed bluffs/talked trash/etc., just normal value bets
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Slash
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
I actually disagree. I think $25-$50 might be the stakes where this works the least. You are playing a lot of weak/tight players who may suspect a push is a bluff but will be unwilling to call it without strong cards or a top read. I nkow this, I'm one of them. And I often try it, and almost never get called - to the extent that I've been experimenting with underbets on the river as I'm sick of being folded to.
I dunno, I may just be experiencing a reaction to my specific aggression, but I think weakness/prudence/fear is the defining characteristic of (the average player at) these stakes. Anyone care to discuss?
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Im mainly a MTT player (rarely play ring games) but I have been playing them on the side to help improve my game (odds mainly). But I started out playing 10NL to get a feel of ring games without blowing alot of unessicary money. I found they were always calling with Draws so I would push my big hands and I got alot of calls.
But after crushing the 10NL I tryed the 25NL and I found the players knew to some point what the hell odds were and as you said tight/weak. I tryed it a couple times and they either folded or called with a better hand. So after blowing 250 playing 25 NL (FR), I went to 6 max and found that the people were loose/aggressive and I would get action.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-48793.htm
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Beck
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 410
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Fnord: yeah, but he was on the donk end of the straight. it wasn't like he had an over pair.
As for me, it works if you have the right image, at 50NL, but more often then not they fold. It just all depends on what hand they have and what they think of me.
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-Beck
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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this is my favorite move. I used to do it at .01/.02 a lot and it worked a ton.
It works less at higher levels but it's like beck wrote- what they have, and what they think of you (except sometimes this doesn't matter and it only depends what they have).
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