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jmontis
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10-21-2005, 10:07 PM
Post subject: Discussion: Chardrian's list o' leaks
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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RE: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=21474
patience is definitely my biggest one, I'll get 5 hours into an MTT and as soon as my M gets low, I make a dumbass move and bust out
i watched soupie and scgolfer a little bit last night in the $150 freeze on party, and it surprised me how patient they were.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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konahead
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: san fernando valley
Posts: 945
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I like number 3 -
How about - you're in it to win the tournament, not that particular hand, especially if you think you may be beat. Keep the big picture in mind. Sometimes folding is the better part of valore...
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmontis
patience is definitely my biggest one, I'll get 5 hours into an MTT and as soon as my M gets low, I make a dumbass move and bust out
i watched soupie and scgolfer a little bit last night in the $150 freeze on party, and it surprised me how patient they were.
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The donk/super aggressive move after hours of good/solid play has definitely been the biggest hit to my BR as well... I am absolutely positive that I have missed out on thousands of dollars at FTs through some of my horrific crash and burns late in MTTs.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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yup, same here man.
I'm starting to think it's best to just be tight and stubborn during periods of losing, and try to only bust out on a great hand or play.
Playing king kong poker does win pots and get you deep in tourneys sometimes, but it's a double edged sword that causes crazy variance.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Adding # 21 - similar to the don't tilt. Do not focus on results - only focus on your decisions. This is one I used to do and feel I have patched pretty well but even now I will occassionally find myself semi-tilting during a tourney after laying down a hand that would have won and then playing way more hands that I should be in and playing them poorly (e.g. I lay down TPTK to a shown bluff or I correctly fold some crappy hand like 3J and the flop comes 33J).
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ZenOffsuit
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Reading, ma
Posts: 293
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[quote="jmontis"]patience is definitely my biggest one, I'll get 5 hours into an MTT and as soon as my M gets low, I make a dumbass move and bust out
i watched soupie and scgolfer a little bit last night in the $150 freeze on party, and it surprised me how patient they were.[/quote
This is a problem for me too, that I will make it ITM but be faced with a low M(5-7) and hoping to stay afloat. In your example, what is your low M in and what would be a dumbass move? If you have an M of 5 and it folds to you in MP, would pushing here be dumbass or rather a rare opportunity for a low M stack to make a move. Granted you have some read on the blind players.
**Great Post Chardrian!!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sprayed
When are you going to write the ultimate johnny_fish strategy manual? I'm tired of seeing your wins and then cleaning my shorts.
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shysti
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Internetz
Posts: 838
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They should make this a little sticky in the beginner's circle, it's good info.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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chardrian,
you've come a looooooong way 
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ZenOffsuit
This is a problem for me too, that I will make it ITM but be faced with a low M(5-7) and hoping to stay afloat. In your example, what is your low M in and what would be a dumbass move? If you have an M of 5 and it folds to you in MP, would pushing here be dumbass or rather a rare opportunity for a low M stack to make a move. Granted you have some read on the blind players.
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Once it gets to that point I push anything folded to me from the SB or button or anything connecting 67+ from the CO/CO-1. Anything earlier than that is too many hands to get through.
- sed
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No fear, go deep or go home!
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by shysti
They should make this a little sticky in the beginner's circle, it's good info.
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ty
and ty to gabe as well.
I do feel like I've come a looong way in a relatively short amount of time. Early on, every tourney I got knocked out of was usually becuase of some donk move. Now - my getting knocked out tends to be due much more to just bad luck rather than bad play. Of course I still make donk moves, and this post was written to try and make me focus before making that incredibly dumb call/or raise when I had no reason to do so.
I once again donked off a good chunk of my winnings after making my biggest payout ever a couple of weeks ago. I have got my head back on str8 and feel a big win coming again soon. This post is gonna be printed out and stapled to my computer so I hopefuly never will donk off my roll again.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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3) Reads - remember that making a play based on a read means that you are making a play based on how you believe your opponent will act based on previous plays - not on how you would act if you were him.
vnh
sticky
I'll say that most of my big cashes came from being patient, and usually I left the FT while King Kong(s) were battling it out. Haven't decided what that means.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Adding another.
22) Time - use it. Get your damn finger off the mouse. You raised the turn with TPTK and got reraised? Take your time and decide what to do - that damn finger over the mouse likes to click the call all-in button more than it should.
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shysti
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Internetz
Posts: 838
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haha me and you are a like in that, had you not written this post I probably would of, weird. That last one you posted is one I live by now, I sit on my hands now, because before my finger was over the mouse button and because of that I noticed I didn't take time to think things through.
I am still waiting to get a big pay day but I feel my game has improved since I've been playing online.
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soupie
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 406
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This is fantastic post. Edit it a bit and I will get aces to sticky it.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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I may have donked off my roll, but getting the "A" grade from one of the stickiest MTTers around means a lot.
TY.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
This is fantastic post. Edit it a bit and I will get aces to sticky it.
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vnh
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Shameless bump.
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digitaldoc
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 135
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Love the post...keep it in the bathroom with all my other poker reading material. (Hey, it's the only time I get some peace and quite to read!)
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If people weren't involved....I would have mastered poker along time ago! - Play the Game!
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Added # 23 thanks to gabe (and Dan harrington)... and my beautiful play tonight.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Added # 24 thanks to TLR. Also figured this post was way to close to the bottom of the page so why not give her a little bump. 
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jdubs
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: California
Posts: 949
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great post..reading while playing right now, patiently playing through the 1st hour...
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Could someone please explain what an "M" is? I apologize if I'm posting in the wrong forum, but it seems to be a term specific to MTT's.
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rubixstreub
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 887
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M= Your stack divided by the total amount in the pot after all blinds and antes are in.
if your stack is 5000 and blinds and antes total 1,000, your M is 5. That's not a good sign.
In Harrington on Hold'em he breaks them down by range.
20+ M = good
.......
less than 5 M = Bad
Someone else will probably come along soon and fill in the gaps, He calls them The Green, Yellow, Orange, Red, and Dead zones I think. It's a good range for choosing starting hands.
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Thank you for clarifying, rubix. I used AoKrongly's guideline of blinds/stack, but was confused if I should be considering just the BB, or the sum of the SB,BB, and antes.
Is there anything on FTR concerning the red, yellow, green zones etc. and hand selection, or do I have to buy the book?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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if you play a lot of tourneys, buy the set, now.
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bluedevil907
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 146
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Agh, recently made the mistake of the super-aggressive move and the "he's bluffing" all at once. I nicely doubled up after going AI with an extremely low M (and somehow caught pot odds thanks to a few folders) but then decided to blow it the next hand.
Thankfully, this list (along with the many others here) always allow me to refocus after a bad hand, tourney, or streak.
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The_Bankroll
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 370
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excellent post, char. I vote for a sticky. btw, what's your screen name on stars? I've been playing a lot of the $20 180s lately, maybe i'll see you there sometime
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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it's chardrian. I played with both rilla and TO today at the $22 180 man tourneys... they are fun.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Added Number 25
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Added number 26 - from Diminish (through dwarfy's blog comments).
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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*cough* one last bump - I want this sucker to get 1000 views and then I'll let it die a solemn death.
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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Trying to put the leak "Everyone is bluffing me" to work. Everytime someone comes over the top after I bet I think they are playing me even when I bet little over half to full pot. Guess what they ain't play'n. Good post Chard.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Excellent list. There's only one or two that I personally disagree with, but they're also things that I recognize that beginners would be best served to follow as well.
Very nice list, and it should definitely be stickied somewhere.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
Excellent list. There's only one or two that I personally disagree with, but they're also things that I recognize that beginners would be best served to follow as well.
Very nice list, and it should definitely be stickied somewhere.
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Michael - Please enlighten us with your dissenting opinions...if you would.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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The main one I personally disagree with is:
5) Calling flop and turn bets - unless you are calling based on a play you plan to make on a later street or because pot odds demand it, it is generally better to fold or raise than to call.
Its certainly good advice for beginners or novice MTT players, but that's mainly because they do WAY too much of calling and barely ever raise (and sometimes barely ever fold). However, good players often do just call a bet on the flop or turn when they don't have pot odds (or are leading) and aren't necessarily planning on making a play.
Its just more complicated than that. You could be calling based on implied odds even if pot odds don't demand a call, you could be slowplaying a monster, you could even be setting a trap with a rather mediocre hand, or you could be calling because you need to see what they'll do on the next street to get a good read and know whether you should raise, call, or fold.
I know that if I were forced to either raise or fold to every bet after the flop (unless I had pot odds) my game would greatly suffer ... especially in MTTs, where its a long road to the final table. Its just too risky of a style, and a player playing that style isn't likely to last very long (think Aaron Kanter, even though he was the exception to the rule and did last long).
Maybe its just the wording I don't like. The general advice that beginners need to reraise and fold more often than they probably have done in the past is very sound.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Although not a true measure of correct decision-making I did make it ITM on this one... 
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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i was just telling my wife that 'raise or fold' is great advice to follow until the day you realize it isn't.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
The main one I personally disagree with is:
5) Calling flop and turn bets - unless you are calling based on a play you plan to make on a later street or because pot odds demand it, it is generally better to fold or raise than to call.
Its certainly good advice for beginners or novice MTT players, but that's mainly because they do WAY too much of calling and barely ever raise (and sometimes barely ever fold). However, good players often do just call a bet on the flop or turn when they don't have pot odds (or are leading) and aren't necessarily planning on making a play.
Its just more complicated than that. You could be calling based on implied odds even if pot odds don't demand a call, you could be slowplaying a monster, you could even be setting a trap with a rather mediocre hand, or you could be calling because you need to see what they'll do on the next street to get a good read and know whether you should raise, call, or fold.
I know that if I were forced to either raise or fold to every bet after the flop (unless I had pot odds) my game would greatly suffer ... especially in MTTs, where its a long road to the final table. Its just too risky of a style, and a player playing that style isn't likely to last very long (think Aaron Kanter, even though he was the exception to the rule and did last long).
Maybe its just the wording I don't like. The general advice that beginners need to reraise and fold more often than they probably have done in the past is very sound.
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This was one of my few (if only) points regarding actual strategy... I guess what I have found to have been a leak for myself was that I would often call a bet because I didn't want to fold (either I had a draw or I sensed bluff) but I didn't want to raise either (because I only had a draw or I didn't have enough balls to trust that my midpair actually was good), so I became a calling station. I also often found myself attempting to stand up to a big stack bully by thinking "hah, I won't let you bully me around - I'll show you I'm not intimidated.... I call."
I definitely agree that simply raise or fold poker is not the answer - I call lots of flop and turn bets depending on the situation and my position. But I also think that many players have a leak in the fact that they simply call way way too much.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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I just edited number 5 - sound better now?
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
This is fantastic post. Edit it a bit and I will get aces to sticky it.
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haha - screw aces. I have the power of stickidom now!!
Actually - I just reread this thread and realized I have fallen back into some leaks lately.
I look forward to posting a MTT victory soon.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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I just added # 27.
Thoughts?
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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a lot of good points you've made here. loads of them if not all of them apply to me.
also, a reply to jmontis first post: if you're M does get low you will loose a lot of the time for being too aggressive. there's nothing you can do about it. it's much better being aggressive and loosing than waiting and waiting for your pocket aces, doubling up, and then having the same stack size as you had an hour before hand. but now the blinds have increased.
that might be another point: don't play too tight towards the end and let the blinds eat you up. so many times you'll loose when you move allin with KJo preflop near the end and regret it afterwards, but think about how it would have gone if you would have just kept folding and folding.
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bpurvis2
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 35
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Patentince is the key in these if you cant concentrate for 5-8 hours then your not going to be a good MTT player alot of people do awsome in the first hour or two in these and then the ygo off somewhere else and start making donk plays that get them kncoked out of the tournament in key times instead of making the right decsions in those key points of the tournament becuase they lost there concentration or they couldn't focus for the amount of time it takes to play these hugh MTT fields
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only_bridge
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 100
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Nice article. Here are my leaks:
1. Me
2. Myself
3. My girlfriend
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