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difficult hand, some insight please

  
 
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wonderland
Old 03-28-2009, 06:03 PM     Post subject: difficult hand, some insight please #1 (permalink)  
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$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Pis.Pshan3 ($8.83)
UTG+1 Hero ($5.22)
CO Hardhard ($9.99)
BTN SteroMike ($3.78)
SB ThornDr ($6.57)
BB Nic0lan ($9.32)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, Hardhard calls $0.20, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.47, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, Hardhard raises to $0.80, Hero calls $0.55

Turn: ($2.07, 2 players)
Hero checks, Hardhard bets $1.10, Hero goes all-in $4.22 ...

Reads: player was about 16/8 over 30ish hands. Seemed like a reasonable player.
 
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Old 03-28-2009, 06:20 PM #2 (permalink)  
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fold flop (depending on reads), turn is fine

the reason I'd fold flop is that his value range should be really tight
I don't see QJ c/r the flop nearly as often as a hand that crushes you
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oskar
Old 03-28-2009, 06:27 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Think a little more about what he could have, and what he'll be calling with.

@6m I call the flop raise against most reasonably aggressive opponents. He could be just trying to pick up you c-bet which wouldn't be a bad play there imo...
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Parasurama
Old 03-28-2009, 06:29 PM #4 (permalink)  
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villain is not c/r flop, he's raising hero's cbet on a dry board. You can fold against certain opponents but I don't think it's standard.

I don't like going all-in on the turn though because the K doesn't help his value range and only marginally helps his bluffing range. This means he's folding nearly everything you beat and obviously he's not folding better. If he doesn't have you beat he's probably drawing very thin so you don't need to protect your hand. River play depends on what comes off.
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wonderland
Old 03-28-2009, 06:54 PM #5 (permalink)  
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what would you guys have done on the turn though?

see, i'd been quite aggressive, not massively, but just leading a lot. So i thought he was defending the cbet.

I sort of had him on AK, so when the king came down i shoved, pretty much based on the general reads for 5nl players. I really wanted to cut out the nasty spots to just grind up nice and steady, and i was. Just watched a vid by spenda and suddenly my game improved a lot, then had this bitch of a situation.

so, if you had him on a cbet defend and called, what would you do on the turn? bet-fold?
 
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Carroters
Old 03-28-2009, 07:08 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 What makes you "sort of have him" on AK when he just flats preflop, and raises a c-bet on a Q high board?

His range here if he's decent is usally KQ, AQ, sets, bluffs or maybe he is being spazzy with a worse top pair if he's bad. AK is the very small part of his bluff range that is going to stack off on this turn, but I don't think it's very likely here at all.

 
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sil693
Old 03-28-2009, 07:52 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
What makes you "sort of have him" on AK
he can beat that hand.
 
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oskar
Old 03-28-2009, 07:54 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 A range does not consist of one hand. - Like carrot said, AK is a very small part of his range there, especially after he flats pre IP.
So you understand that you mostly beat bluffs and thin value raises on the flop, right?
So the K is a scare card if anything, and if he was bluffing, it's a great card for him to continue to represent. Check is fine, but C/R I don't get at all. You're basically hoping he hit a K, AND is going to stack off with it.
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Ragnar4
Old 03-28-2009, 08:00 PM #9 (permalink)  
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22, 88, QQ, KK and AA are all in his range (although I AA/KK are a very tiny part of the range IMO.)

But to be honest it takes a very passive player to flat with AK. I just think that his range (as a reasonable player) is still destroying KQ. and you're dead to 4 outs for your last 5 bucks.

Opponent may... MAY have been doing this with JT if he's pretty aggressive.
The flop call is very read dependant imo.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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wonderland
Old 03-28-2009, 08:49 PM #10 (permalink)  
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yeah, the flat call thing. I don't often see people skillfully 3betting with AK here. I went up against someone a few hands previous who was like a 10/5 or perhaps less than 5. He limped with AK.

But i wouldn't have him on QQ without him 3betting THAT at least pre. Same with KK or AA, people will.... i was gonna say always 3bet that but i've seen people at 5nl limp with AA too.

This is why it's hard to read people.

You're all right though, that i should have smelled a rat with the big flop raise. I really must not get it all in without a decent read and a better hand that top two. Course now i'm gonna be folding some big hands where i perhaps shouldn't. But no more shoving without more info, it's just hard at these stakes coz people can and do surprise you with weak calls and such.
 
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Ragnar4
Old 03-28-2009, 09:02 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderland
yeah, the flat call thing. I don't often see people skillfully 3betting with AK here. I went up against someone a few hands previous who was like a 10/5 or perhaps less than 5. He limped with AK.

But i wouldn't have him on QQ without him 3betting THAT at least pre. Same with KK or AA, people will.... i was gonna say always 3bet that but i've seen people at 5nl limp with AA too.

This is why it's hard to read people.

You're all right though, that i should have smelled a rat with the big flop raise. I really must not get it all in without a decent read and a better hand that top two. Course now i'm gonna be folding some big hands where i perhaps shouldn't. But no more shoving without more info, it's just hard at these stakes coz people can and do surprise you with weak calls and such.
Best advice I've ever been given, and it's really tough to follow:

Bet, bet, bet, bet, bet. Bet until they bet back, and then take a good close look at your hand and look for reasons to fold.
-zilla

People are just too passive at micros to bluffraise here.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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wonderland
Old 03-28-2009, 09:36 PM #12 (permalink)  
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yeah, that sounds reasonable.

i guess my latest game has been going from: limp limp limp raise to bet bet bet.

and that works great but without the - look for reasons to fold thing, you'll lose what you've built up over two hours in two hands.
 
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lytstephe
Old 03-29-2009, 02:46 AM #13 (permalink)  

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I agree fold on the flop could've been a good option. I wouldn't have personally since he could have easily been raise bluffing or doing it with a weaker kicker.

However I would've led on the turn. Not leading there gives you a lot less read on him. After your check to him, you have no idea what his bet could mean. Rather, if you bet, these are the likely tells from his action: If he folded, he got mid-pair or Q with weak kicker, or just completely bluffed. If he called, he has med-strength hand like AK, AQ which you beat now and is valuetowning him (so continue betting on the river). If he shove, somewhat likely he has a set. He could have hit a King and did that, and it wouldn't be bad if you are so inclined to call that shove.

I can see that you are trying to induce a bluff but I just think its not the best play here. After all, if he had AK, he'd call whatever you put out there in the first place, and check-raising just doesn't help much. And if he had a hand weak enough to fold to a bet here, quite unlikely he will bluff with it.

Please post any comments/suggestions/feedback.
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