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Danh Bai
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09-29-2008, 05:32 PM
Post subject: Did I kill my action here?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 166
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Should I just call here next time?
Seat 2: KILL*** (107.65 in chips)
Seat 3: SMD1*** (57.45 in chips)
Seat 4: remp*** (73.00 in chips)
Seat 5: Word*** (47.05 in chips)
Seat 6: TGAN*** (19.50 in chips)
Seat 7: dubo*** (40.45 in chips)
Seat 8: Hero (39.45 in chips)
Seat 9: Bobb*** (26.20 in chips)
Seat 10: Buen*** (71.70 in chips)
Buen***: posts small blind $0.25
KILL***: posts big blind $0.50
Dealt to Hero[ Kh Ks ]
SMD1***: folds
remp***: folds
Word***: folds
TGAN***: raises to $1.50
dubo***: folds
Hero: raises to $2.50
Bobb***: folds
Buen***: folds
KILL***: folds
TGAN***: folds
Hero: returns uncalled bet $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero: mucks
Hero wins $3.75
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yourfather
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: In your fridge
Posts: 603
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Raise more pretty much all the time. I make it like 4.50-5.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,588
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No you shouldn't just call here. Just because he folded this time doesn't mean you shouldn't have raised. Your hand is a premium hand, and you want to get money in, so you need to raise in order to do that.
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Squeaky_Midget1
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 126
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-Calling=Pricing in big blind with suited connectors
-Once he's priced in and flops a straight to your over pair you proceed to go on monkey tilt and donk off your roll
-After you go bust you throw your mouse across the room and break your girlfriends fathers urn
-Shes sees it and you blame it on the cat
-She puts the disobedient cat to sleep
Unless you want innocent kitties to die, reraise
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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The fact that you posted this shows that you have a very results-oriented mindset in the first place. It's something to keep in mind when you consider your own approach to learning.
As played, part of the point of 3-betting here is to make it -EV for someone to call with a weaker hand by giving them bad implied odds. If you make a weiner raise then he (not to mention everyone else still left in the hand) have great implied odds because of the price and the fact that they know you have a stronger than usual hand and will stack off against them more often.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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DaddyDeez
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: missoula, MT
Posts: 113
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Is it possible this guy had a read on u cuz u normally min raise KK+? Dont min raise, don't be results oriented. By min raising this u gave him good odds to call u down with PP's and SC's and if he hit the flop he would easily stack you. simply because u min raised him preflop with KK.
make it atleast 3-4x from now on.
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I post nonconstructive piss
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Danh Bai
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 166
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Thanks for the replies.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
The fact that you posted this shows that you have a very results-oriented mindset in the first place. It's something to keep in mind when you consider your own approach to learning.
As played, part of the point of 3-betting here is to make it -EV for someone to call with a weaker hand by giving them bad implied odds. If you make a weiner raise then he (not to mention everyone else still left in the hand) have great implied odds because of the price and the fact that they know you have a stronger than usual hand and will stack off against them more often.
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Spoonit, so you're saying i should have made a bigger re-raise? Some of your a post is a bit over my head...
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,515
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Dahn Bai, what hands do you typically re-raise with?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Danh Bai
Thanks for the replies.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
The fact that you posted this shows that you have a very results-oriented mindset in the first place. It's something to keep in mind when you consider your own approach to learning.
As played, part of the point of 3-betting here is to make it -EV for someone to call with a weaker hand by giving them bad implied odds. If you make a weiner raise then he (not to mention everyone else still left in the hand) have great implied odds because of the price and the fact that they know you have a stronger than usual hand and will stack off against them more often.
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Spoonit, so you're saying i should have made a bigger re-raise? Some of your a post is a bit over my head... |
Yes.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Danh Bai
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Dahn Bai, what hands do you typically re-raise with?
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KJ, KQ, A10-AK
pocket pairs TT-AA
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you RE-RAISE with those hands?
pokerstove KJ vs. my raising range
my raising range from MP:
any pp
AJ+
ATs+
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Danh Bai
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
you RE-RAISE with those hands?
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Sorry, misread that. No, I RAISE with those, not re-raise. Re-raise w/kk,aa or maybe ak - but for the most part i've just been raising or calling a raise with them.
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lol, you flat QQ?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,588
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
lol, you flat QQ?
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lol, you think that's a horrible idea?
Given, possibly at the micros, and against some opponents you'd be better off 3betting, but flatting QQ is some instances (and sometimes most instances) is not a bad thing.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
lol, you flat QQ?
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lol, you think that's a horrible idea?
Given, possibly at the micros, and against some opponents you'd be better off 3betting, but flatting QQ is some instances (and sometimes most instances) is not a bad thing. |
PokerStove shows we're ahead of a villain who raises 99+,AQs+,AKo (4%)
You're simply missing value by flatting QQ
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,588
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Pokerstove doesn't take into account villain's 3bet calling range. When you 3bet you are either A) Doing it for value willing to stack off preflop, or B) doing it as a bluff, intending to either fold to a 4b or 5b bluff yourself.
Most villains (especially at micros) don't 4b bluff. Therefore, a 4b from them means they have a rather tight range (KK+, AK). QQ doesn't do too well against that range, so if you 3bet and get 4b you will probably do good to fold. Therefore, you just turned QQ into a 3b bluff. And QQ is way too good of a hand to bluff with. You would have been better off 3bet bluffing with a hand that is not profitable to call with, such as weak suited aces.
DUC what I'm trying to say?
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No, we didn't turn it into a 3b bluff because we're expecting him to flat our 3b because your regular villain at microstakes loves to call. Usually a bluff entails not being ahead when called.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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No stacks, he doesn't really see what you are trying to say. I don't wanna type a lot on this subject right now so I'll keep it simple.
we are losing tonnes of post flop EV by three betting QQ preflop in a lot of situations in FR.
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Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,588
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
No, we didn't turn it into a 3b bluff because we're expecting him to flat our 3b because your regular villain at microstakes loves to call. Usually a bluff entails not being ahead when called.
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If this was the lowest of micros I would see your point. I wouldn't be against felting QQ preflop against most opponents say below 25nl. But at 25nl+, the villains become a little more competent. And they generally understand that if they call this 3bet they will be playing a big pot, that will easily put their entire stack at risk, out of position. Therefore, most villains aren't going to be calling too incredibly light.*
Therefore, by 3betting QQ when we will have a positional advantage, and there is a good chance it will be a HU pot (like we want), then we are narrowing the villains range to hands that we don't fare too well against.
To try to sum it up, I believe 3betting QQ is +ev. However, I believe it is more +ev (in most instances) to just call with QQ.
* Things such as maniac opponents, multiple people calling the initial raise, history, position of raiser, or being oop, should play factors in whether you are 3betting or just flatting. But as a standard if an Unkown opens in EP, and it's folded to me in LP, I would generally just call with QQ. Because his range is already rather tight.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,588
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.
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Most opponents aren't calling a 3b with the majority of their raising range though.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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we are focusing too much on preflop here.
Postflop is where the money is made and by not 3betting pre we can make more money than we can if we 3bet pre in given situation.
Obviously there are some situations where 3betting QQ pre is good/more +EV, whatever. But on the whole I think you can make more money postflop if you flat it.
But what do me and stacks know, right?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.
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Most opponents aren't calling a 3b with the majority of their raising range though. |
Stakes/site dependent
at 2NL yes, at 100NL I hope not
I have a shitty sample, but I have people calling my 3bet with :Kh: :Th:, :Tc: :Ts: in NL25
I'd be shocked if you told me that in my game against an unknown 3-betting QQ is EV-
also someone that's 30/20 wouldn't be calling my 3bet with the majority of their raising range, but if they call with the top QUARTER of their range I'm still ahead
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.
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Most opponents aren't calling a 3b with the majority of their raising range though. |
Stakes/site dependent
at 2NL yes, at 100NL I hope not
I have a shitty sample, but I have people calling my 3bet with :Kh: :Th:, :Tc: :Ts: in NL25
I'd be shocked if you told me that in my game against an unknown 3-betting QQ is EV-
also someone that's 30/20 wouldn't be calling my 3bet with the majority of their raising range, but if they call with the top QUARTER of their range I'm still ahead |
I give up, ur totally missing the fucking point. This is why ppl find you annoying, coz u just argue with respected members such as stacks - you don't actually take on board anything they say.
READ, ABSORB, RESPOND
You starting playing NL about 2months ago, so don't act like you know it all.
THINK ABOUT POSTFLOP EV FOR THE 3RD TIME
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,405
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Stacks has only been playing NL for like 4-5 months.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Stacks has only been playing NL for like 4-5 months.
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Well he's learnt his shit fast then and he's willing to listen to others.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.
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Most opponents aren't calling a 3b with the majority of their raising range though. |
Stakes/site dependent
at 2NL yes, at 100NL I hope not
I have a shitty sample, but I have people calling my 3bet with :Kh: :Th:, :Tc: :Ts: in NL25
I'd be shocked if you told me that in my game against an unknown 3-betting QQ is EV-
also someone that's 30/20 wouldn't be calling my 3bet with the majority of their raising range, but if they call with the top QUARTER of their range I'm still ahead |
I give up, ur totally missing the fucking point. This is why ppl find you annoying, coz u just argue with respected members such as stacks - you don't actually take on board anything they say.
READ, ABSORB, RESPOND
You starting playing NL about 2months ago, so don't act like you know it all.
THINK ABOUT POSTFLOP EV FOR THE 3RD TIME |
Yes, I don't get it, so why aren't you explaining it better to me? I still don't see wtf.
OK, say opponent calls with 88. The flop is K52 rainbow. He checks. I check behind. Turn is a brick. He shoots a 2/3 PSB. I call. He checks river. I check behind. Value extracted.
QQ plays fine post-flop. I also feel I have an edge post-flop. That's probably the best argument is that the deeper we are post-flop the higher my edge is.
Here's a problem though, if i flat pre-flop and I have an overpair, doesn't that mean I should raise the flop? So if I flop an overpair I'm getting the same amount of money in as if I 3-bet and c-bet the flop. Or do I flat the flop too? Since I don't play QQ this way, you tell me what the plan for our hand is.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,515
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oh hi, thank you all for missing my point
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