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| Fnord |
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Simple question, but I suspect a lot of people don't really get it... 100-200BB effective stacks. Why raise pre-flop? What are the merits of the following openers: 2BB 2.5BB 3BB 4BB Bigger How do you determine the best opener for a given game? |
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | ||||||
| DoGGz |
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Just because you have a huge deep stack, doesn't change how I'd raise big hands. The whole point of raising preflop is putting money into the pot while your ahead, so if they don't draw out, then you win. If you don't raise any hands, then your allowing players to limp strong drawing hands into the pot cheap. If I have 45s, It's a lot easier to know when I'm way ahead or not. I either hit the board hard, or I didn't. With AA KK AK, sometimes it's much more about what your opponent hit. Because if they hit it hard, your probably behind, and if they didn't, then your probably ahead. It comes down to being able to read where you stand in the hand. Are you the player that can't fold AA? It's these types of players that definately have negative equity in a deep stacked game. |
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| Fnord |
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| lolzzz_321 |
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| um my raise is 4x BB. What game r we talking about here? PArty 25NL or PArty 600NL? | |||||
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| Fnord |
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| aislephive |
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| lolzzz_321 |
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Hmmmmm seems to be the happy medium between rasing too much and rasing to little, for a looser table $1.25. I raise:AK, AQ (only making 0.8BB/100 after 30k hands ): ), KK, QQ |
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| Fnord |
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| lolzzz_321 |
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| Fnord |
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| lolzzz_321 |
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| O shit i forgot i raised KQs too. Not AJs. | |||||
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| a500lbgorilla |
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At the core, preflop raising has simply become a way to get tight players to define their hands on an earlier street and establish an aggressor. Any value beyond minraise will simply help clear the field and let you take whatever hand you like to the flop. I think many hands run very close in value preflop as you near 200 bb. As for the perfect value to raise, I'm not sure. I really want to think over it but don't have the time between tests. Maybe I'll really get something down tomorrow night. -'rilla |
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 Smithers, use the amnesia ray. You mean the revolver, sir? Precisely.
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| lolzzz_321 |
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No prblm winning big pots after limping, no one knows what limping is. I'm still undecided about limping like 22-55 in EP. Doucy? Also, I could raise AJs, I dunno y I don't, I'll work on it. |
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| Fnord |
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Consider this: Weak/semi-tight/nitty PokerStars 100NL. 3 limpers to you in the CO with 88. Is limping or raising to 3x the better play? Is it close? |
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| Fnord |
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| lolzzz_321 |
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| I meant in tougher games sry. | |||||
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| cryptyk |
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I learned this rationale for raising preflop with good hands, but havent seen it mentioned: You raise preflop to force crap hands out. If you're holding AKs and you limp in, everyone else will limp, too (with 27o). When the flop comes out 227, you're screwed because you let people with crap cards into the flop. If you raise your AKs, the guy with 27o will muck preflop and the 227 flop can be considered "mostly harmless". Now lets say you hit the flop: You limp AKs and everyone else comes to (27o). You hit the flop hard with a rainbow QJ10. Now you raise and the 27o mucks. Basically, you aren't going to make any money off of him if you hit, but can lose the hand if he hits. Raising preflop prevents that. |
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| Fnord |
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I would love it for someone UTG to limp 72o then call 3x when I have AKs. However, if he cold calls on the button and knows how to play my cards post-flop I might have a problem... 'rilla's point about defining hands also applies here. Against most players we can rule out a lot of hands when they call our PFR. |
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| CrunchyNuts |
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The best situation in poker is to have a strong hand when your opponent has a weaker strong hand. In this situation, you will get the most money in the middle than any other situation and your opp will be drawing thin/dead. In order to get deep stacks into that situation without tipping off the opp that you do have them beat, you need to start the pot early and juice it all the way. Let's say we're dealing 100BB stacks, and anything past a pot-sized pot will scare your opp away (Why not play PL? Meh, just work with me here). So you're going to fire off pot-sized and he's going to call all the way down (yea, retardedly simple - gotta love modeling), effectively tripling the pot at each of 3 streets, so the final pot is <pre-flop-pot>*3^3 = <pre-flop-pot>*27. It's clear that we're aiming at a 200BB pot here, so we'd want the pre-flop pot to be at least 8BB. Now there's a whole crapton of assumptions and soforth in there, and it's ignoring speculative hands and made draws and such, but I think that's the situation we're gunning for most of the time, and going to the flop with an insufficient pot to get you there is a mistake. And anyways, you gotta start the reasoning somewhere~ |
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Up my bankroll - buy Saints Row.
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| cryptyk |
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| Fnord |
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| Fnord |
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http://tinyurl.com/cyanj |
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| r8ed |
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You should open with a minimum of 5xbb in my opinion. That will be your standard raise. No matter what hand you raise with, you should raise that same amount. This will weed out players and disguise the strength of your hand. The point of raising preflop IS to weed out crappy hands like the aforementioned 72o. Sure, you want some dolt playing such a poor starting hand, but you don't want the whole table seeing the flop with random hands that you can't put them on. I think reducing the number of people seeing the flop is another benifit of raising preflop. It's easier to put one or two people on a hand than 6. You onlywant one person to make it to the river with you if at all. If you have more than that you better have the absolute nuts. Do deep stacks matter in this dicussion? I'm not sure. No matter what, you want establish things preflop rather than "going in blind". I'm not sure if this thread is rhetorical or what, but I wanted to make those points. |
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| CrunchyNuts |
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| Goddamn it Fnord, your link has made this page unreadable. tinyurl it please. | |||||
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| Fnord |
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| Fnord |
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Although your point about controling the size of the field does have some merit. Particularly discouraging players with position from comming in behind you. BTW, what's magic about 5x? Why not 3x, 4x or 6x? |
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| TalentedTom |
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I raise preflop so if I hit whatever im looking for I can play it very fast. If I dont raise preflop with AK and flop comes A72 my betting would be capped by the pot, but if i raise preflop some sucker with aj or at will call and go broke  With draw hands ( AK, AQ, AJs) I raise to dumb money into the pot so if i hit, the potential for a big pot is there, with AK 4-10xBB, with AJ and AQ i cap it at 6x. (also put 88, 99, TT, jj, qq here)With my big PP's I raise as much as I think my opponents will call and i hope they make the 2nd best hand (tptk) if not i will try to take it down, i dont want someone drawing cheap. With these i will raise from 4x to as high as i think i can get away with. (aa, kk) Using this baby im getting 18bb/100 @ the 100NL 6 max' tables but since i play very fast i lose a ton of big pots A LOT especially to draws, sometimes ( about 30$ of the time) i start out losing 2 buy-ins but my play in general is +EV so i make it back. |
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Tom.S
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| Lukie |
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1. Isolation. 2. Better position post-flop. 3. Define your opponents starting hand. 4. Put the money in with the best hand. 5. Establish yourself as the agressor. Obviously not all of these are going to apply on any given hand, but they are some reasons why you raise preflop. Good discussion. /me likes |
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| SmackinYaUp |
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in deep stacked games, preflop isn't going to mean as much overall - you ever notice that its a lot easier and safer to take down a huge pot after calling a raise than it is being the one raising? i hate having AA with 200bb, raising from the BB and getting calls on the flop, a call on the turn, and then a huge raise on the river after no draws have hit hold on, i think i look at NL incrorrectly - i see each play as setting yourself up for a chance at doubling up. i don't play at a PT supported site any more so I've gotten away from looking at long-term results of individual hands. if you're asking how much you're going to have to raise AK preflop over the long run to make money in 200bb games ala limit holdem thinking, then i have no idea. It probably depends on how good you are postflop. if you can never fold overpairs, then the preflop raise going to be a much bigger number my conclusion: it really doesnt matter because postflop is where all the big decisions come in deep games. you can get away with being loose preflop because of implied odds and pot stealing post flop. when deep, its going to be pretty hard to get pocket sevens to fold - sure you can raise 25bbs and take away from their set implied odds, but thats just overkill. i also know that you don't want to get pegged for only raising a few select hands because then you would be easy to avoid- but i guess that wouldnt be the case in a juicy game |
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He who drinks beer sleeps well.
He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to Heaven.
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| CrunchyNuts |
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Thanks. This has me thinking a lot about my play. I've been on the party network playing $25NL against the rocks, and pre-flop raising has become 90% of my strategy since most pots I'm in don't make it past the flop. Against this type of opponent (tight/passive/weak (~10% VP$IP, <1.0 post-flop agression)), I find that a 4BB PFR ($1) from LP (CO-1 to SB) will drive them out, say, perhaps 80% of the time, gaining you $.35. If called by one (let's say that covers the rest of the 20% probability), after the flop, betting an average of 3/4 pot (random between 1/2 pot and pot ($1-$2)) will win you the pot 75% of the time right there (say, a 9BB pot, $2.25). Assuming you never ever hit, this move is still +EV (dealing in dollars here 'cause, well, I want to): Code:
Pre flop profit = .35 Post flop profit = .75 * (2.25+1.5) - (1.5 + 1) = 2.8125 - 2.5 = 0.3125 Total EV = <pre flop profit> * .8 + <post flop profit> * .2 = .35 * .8 + .2 * 0.3125 = .28 + 0.0625 = 0.3425 Disclaimer: I know this has very little to do with deep stacked games, was just a related case that has some bearing to the discussion. |
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Up my bankroll - buy Saints Row.
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| Fnord |
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| r8ed |
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Not raising reminds me of omaha. Everybody limps in and whoever hits their hand wins. Yipee. Also, AK was a losing hand for me for a long time. Why? I attribute it to NOT raising preflop - because once I started to raise it 5xbb and continuation bet (full pot) the flop every time I turned that stat around quick. It's a profitable hand for me now. So raising AK/AQ lets you represent AA/KK on the flop as well. |
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| Cocco_Bill |
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Here's an oversimplified outlook. You raise pre flop for these reasons: 1) To win the blinds. Absent of blinds you are the sucker if you play any other hand than AA! 2) For value, meaning that you are hoping for worse hands to call your raises. 3) To induce mistakes, such as people avoiding big pots with you because of your aggressive play. If only a better hand calls your raises, you will have to get lucky or outplay them post flop, raising pre flop helps you outplay them postflop. All hands are worth the same unless it goes to a showdown, so make sure that your post flop bets and raises are such that worse hands are able to call or such that better hands will fold. Simple eh? |
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| Fnord |
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| BankItDrew |
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This size of my raise in relation to the blinds do not change at any level of blinds. The only thing that changes my raising patterns are: (1) position @ table while considering # of players still in the hand (2) # of remaining players @ the table |
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 Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?! Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again? Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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| yeardley |
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Also, I'm just curious, when talking about deepstacked games, who is deep? Just you or a bunch of people? |
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| SmackinYaUp |
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On the other hand the streets can be totally disjointed at times. You can have aces, raise it preflop, bet it on a safe flop, then a measly looking 5 hits the turn and you suddenly run into a huge raise. That is not a good flow at all. However, I see what your saying if I think about it like this: if you are playing in a 10 handed game where everyone has a couple hundred bb's behind them, then your preflop will matter more simply because of the number of people and the ability to camp all day. Pocket 2's might have reverse implied odds here. If you're playing in a 3 handed deep stacked game, though, preflop doesn't mean much of shit besides establishing an initial aggressor. You can (and in my opinion should) raise with shit like 75s because preflop doesnt mean anything in this case and the blinds are coming around every 45 seconds. |
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He who drinks beer sleeps well.
He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to Heaven.
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| jmontis |
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look at how the dominant 10-20 NL players play on stars. Do you think they raise 4xBB with 9To because it's a good hand? They know they have 2 ways to win the hand even against AA. Bluffing or catching a big flop. In deep stack games, cards become less important, while bluffs and position increase in value tremendously. Don't believe me? min raise someones flop bet then bet the pot on the turn sometime, you'll be surprised what happens. |
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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| aislephive |
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| Zangief |
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Bump, because this seems like an important question that hasn't received enough attention. Where's Rondavu? I thought he might give an insightful answer. |
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| arkana |
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Ok I dont know if this is what you are getting at Fnord but this is how I see it: Assume 100BB stacks. In loose games where you often get 2-5 callers preflop and continuation bets on the flop tend to be unsuccessful pots tend to build themselves rather quickly. I tend to raise 3xBB preflop here with all my hands. If i get 3 callers preflop the pot is already ~12BBs and a pot sized bet on the flop will often get 1 or 2 callers. 1 caller and the pot is about is 36BBs on the turn, 2 callers and the pot is 48BBs. (If you raised 5xBB preflop the pot would be 45BBs - 60BBs which is too big for my liking) Against loose players I prefer having a lot of money behind for the turn and the river because this is where they make their most costly mistakes. With a 36BBs-48BBs pot on the turn and still 85BBs in my stack its not that hard to win big pots without having to overbet if they want to see a showdown and you haven't invested too much to get to the turn with only one or two players. If I raise more preflop the pot tends to grow too quickly (because of the number of players calling preflop+flop) leaving me with less money behind for the turn and river. In tighter games where you only get 1-2 callers preflop a raise of 4xBB-5xBB is better because its much harder to build a pot. If you get 2 preflop callers and one caller on the flop the pot will be: ~45BBs if you raised 5xBB preflop ~36BBs if you raised 4xBB preflop ~27BBs if you raised 3xBB preflop With a 27BBs pot and only one opponent it gets difficult to win big pots without overbetting, but with a 45BBs pot on the turn its not that hard. In loose games you can make a lot of money on the turn and river whereas in tighter games few pots tend to go further than the flop and with less opponents (and when they do you want to be able to stack someone without having to overbet). Therefore you want more money behind in looser games and more money in preflop in tighter games. |
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| Miffed22001 |
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Ok i read about half of the posts and now ill have my shot The assumption we have all made is that we use the preflop raise to get opps out of the hand. Therefore we also assume that we are protecting our unmade but potentailly winning cards against more speculative cards or cards that may hit but not be the best hand. Also we are making people pay when we have top cards to try and beat us or gain a draw that may also do the same. But is this true? Our thinking behind each hand is to make the most money possible when we have the best hand (this is not necessarily by betting the most but betting the highest amount of money our opp is prepared to call at each street) therefore is our preflop raise not of a similar nature? are we trying to raise an amount that people will call to see a flop with whatever holdings they have. I would say we are. therefore how do we define the scope of our preflop raise? therefore we WANT to give pps the chance to flop a set, we want to give suited connectors the chance to flop a draw etc but when we hit we wnat to close the oppertunity so fast they have to make the fold. Therefore my raise would eb weighted on what i think opps will call with certain hands when they have a deeper stack. Arguably there may, and fnord may show, to be math behind this question. I would argue against this as if my stack is twice as deep and therefore i raise twice as much or something equally stupid imo an 8bb raise is still an 8bb raise. But to counter this arguement if the stacks are deep many people may decide that despite having odds for their draw it is worth calling anyway because the hit to their stack is smaller as a whole percentage. I think im right in suggesting pro players like deep stacks and smaller blinds as it allows for space to 'play poker' (see for example the world heads up tournament) so my thinking is this if you can outplay opps post flop id make the pots small and win more of them. this takes away the temptation for the opp to make dumb plays with crap draws or rubish cards because there is nothing to win, the pot is small. in contrast if im having diffculty or i repsect other opps play then i raise bigger to make pots worth entering with suited connectors etc so that opps will hold in the pot if they catch something becuase ive built up a nice pot. well that was long winded and not all of it made sense, im sure ill edit this but those are some of my thoughts between lectures. |
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| DogOnMySide |
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A lot of this is already said but as Bob Hoskins said... its good to talk. The thing that confuses me slightly about this thread is the implicit assertion that having "deep stacks" automatically affects the value of your pre-flop raises. Why would that be the case? Do you think that when players get to 100xBB and above that they are more likely to ignore your raises and play anyway, because it represents less of their stack? I appreciate that in a deep stack NL game you stand to lose more in every hand. One of your first comments was that Quote:
This might well be my fundamental lack of understanding of the situation but in my eyes if i am holding 8 3 off and someone raises to 5xBB i am folding whether i have 10BB or 1000BB. As long as the raises are proportional and relevant to i) the blinds and ii) the texture of the table then I would think that the point of raising is the same as ever: - to assert some measure of confidence (false or not) that you could win the hand - to force other players to respond to that assertion and therefore in some way begin to define their own holdings - to isolate the players who feel they have hands that can compete with yours - to build the pot, increasing the value of the win I personally think that preflop, building the pot is (while obviously important) the least of the three aims. Unless you hold AA, the first thing you always want to know is if anyone has a hand that is stronger than yours. Barring complete "playing the players" bluffs... the worst case scenario for any hand which you think is strong is to have too many players see a flop. We all know - any two cards can - and frequently do - win***. It's up to you to raise preflop to prevent this. *** Is this is the part where my 8 3 off scenario with a massive stack starts to look more playable (?) It would be interesting to see you (Fnord) begin to hint at what you were getting at with this thread. |
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"The best blog you'll ever read. Because after you read it I will poke your fucking eyes out"
- Martha Farqhar http://mattspokerbankroll.blogspot.com/
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| PokerPatNEU |
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All that being said, i don't agree that pre flop raises don't have value in deep stack games simply because not all players think this way. The fact is that the vast majority of players WILL respect a 4x pre flop raise even if everyone at the table has 100+ BB, and therefore you gain information from raising pre flop that you would not have by limping. If some pro were to put out a book citing the merits of never raising pre flop in deep stack ring games, and people began to believe it and more and more players stopped raising pre flop, the value of raising pre flop would decrease because you would not benefit from the information you gain when your opponent calls your raise. |
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| arkana |
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| PokerPatNEU |
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| A 5BB raise out of a 500BB stack is only 1% of your stack. And im' not advocating a call here at all, i'm just saying its a much much better call with real deep stacks then it is with real shallow ones. Though both would be a -EV call against compotent opponents, it is less -EV if your stack is deeper because you have the chance to get paid off if you hit or outplay your opponent if you both miss. | |||||
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| arkana |
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| pgil |
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| I may be way off base here, but I can see using a pf raise to disguise my hand. Assuming that you have been seen limping a lot of suited connectors and the like, I would suspect that if you were to raise with them on some occasions, you would be more likely to have your hand paid off when it hits, as noone would expect you to have those cards. Other than as some sort of deception, a pf raise doesnt seem to be a good idea in a deep stack game. It might get more into the pot for your premium hands, but then you have defined your holdings, and will not get paid if everyone has a good idea of what you have. It would seem that the real money would be going into the pot post flop. | |||||
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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| Zangief |
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But to actually be deceptive, you would have to raise both your premium hands and your other hands (suited connectors or whatever). Otherwise, where is the deception? |
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| Laeelin |
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Personally, by FAR the reason I raise preflop is so that I can win far more on the river. I like to raise 4BB preflop, and bet the pot on flop/turn/river. Lets look at pot sizes with a 4BB preflop raise, and just limping. For this example assume 3 players calling preflop, and one caling you all the way down. Limped Pot: PreFlop Pot: 3BB Flop Pot:9BB Turn Pot:27BB River Pot: 81BB Raised Pot: PreFlop Pot: 15BB Flop Pot:45BB Turn Pot:135BB River Pot: 405BB Which pot do you want to win? I hate playing in a unraised pot... |
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| KoRnholio |
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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