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Thunder
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01-21-2008, 01:33 AM
Post subject: Deals
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Can someone please explain why any one, when down to the final 3, would make a deal and what a typical breakdown would be?
I am assuming that the weighting is more even but that only detracts away from the eventual winner and, surely, removes a lot of competitiveness amongst the players.
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pankfish
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On Tony Romo's nuts
Posts: 385
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You take the all of the remaining prize money and divide it up based on chip counts. As for why anyone would do it, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't. It guarantees you more money than you are currently guaranteed.
As for wanting to keep it competitive, you can always leave some money in the middle for the eventual winner. Some tournaments like the sunday millions require that you leave some in the middle.
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<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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it keeps me from finally grabbing AA w/ the chip lead and getting cracked...forcing me to push my friggin AXo on the next hand and going completely busto by some stupid 33. thereby, taking 3rd instead of 1st with the previous gigantic chip lead.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Say you get to HU in the PS Sunday Million where first prize is $212K and second prize is $107K. Even if you are the 3:1 chip leader, do you want to play heads up for $105K swing when losing a couple of flips could easily bundle you out in second place?
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shazbox
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 170
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I even chopped slightly less than I should have with my chip lead, but I was getting tired and didn't wanna risk it.
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nickthefool
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: here
Posts: 338
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I remember seeing one time in the stars sunday million, there was one guy who was a big chip leader (he had about 75% of the chips i think) and they chopped 4-handed. Not sure exactly how it worked, but he would have got more than the first prize had he won - that's a reason to deal!
He ended up coming 2nd, though, but still got the biggest prize.
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The poker gods love me really, they are just testing my faith !
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pankfish
You take the all of the remaining prize money and divide it up based on chip counts.
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Never do this unless you are the chip leader. The end of any tournament is often determined by luck not skill due to the rapidly rising blinds. As a non-chip leader player, you are better off striking a deal that has the leader giving up some of their prize money. The chip leader is not going to win more often than his proportion of chips in the long run.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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The idea is to lower variance while keeping expectation approximately the same.
It's the same reason you see people "running it twice" so many times in high stakes cash games.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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There are mathematical formulae for working out a fair chop - I'm afraid I don't know what they are but if you need to know I'm sure someone can provide a link.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Thx for the explanation but how do you do a chop online, when I assume everything is automated and is predetermined?
"I remember seeing one time in the stars sunday million, there was one guy who was a big chip leader (he had about 75% of the chips i think) and they chopped 4-handed. Not sure exactly how it worked, but he would have got more than the first prize had he won - that's a reason to deal!"
How did that happen? I can't understand how, even with a chop, a 2nd place finish can win more than who came 1st.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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online, you email support and they come to the table. You usually get the money you would have had pre-chop and then they adjust it.
@ the sunday mil, this week payouts were:
278k
140k
100k
79k
For a total of 597k
say you have 35% of the chips in play. Everyone else at the table is even and has a total BR of 5k and the idea of placing 4th rather than second and losing 60k is just not acceptable.
So they decide that they will give you 175k right now (your equity is about 208k but remember, you may still get 79k instead) and each take 100k, and play for the rest. That (100+100+100+175=475) leaves 125k or so for the winner. So if the winner is not you, they get 225k and more than you, but if you win, you'd get you 175k plus the 125k(more than you would have won playing straight). This would, in pure $$ terms, be a terrible deal for the shorties, but you can understand how someone who qualified for 10 bucks would take it - they get 100k instead of 79k for sure with a reasonable chance at 125k more
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Thx for the explanation but how do you do a chop online, when I assume everything is automated and is predetermined?
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In the big Stars tourneys like the Sunday Million, they have their staff watch the FT and they stop the action if everybody agrees to at least try to negotiate a deal. The players then negotiate over a deal, Stars confirms them and once it is agreed, payouts are made automatically by Stars according to the deal.
I think you can chop other tournaments but you have to e-mail support to get them stop the tourney.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
"I remember seeing one time in the stars sunday million, there was one guy who was a big chip leader (he had about 75% of the chips i think) and they chopped 4-handed. Not sure exactly how it worked, but he would have got more than the first prize had he won - that's a reason to deal!"
How did that happen? I can't understand how, even with a chop, a 2nd place finish can win more than who came 1st.
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Not sure how this can happen. The chip leader always has to trade off a little bit of money from 1st place otherwise why would the others deal? Also, in the Sunday Million, $30K has to be left for the ultimate winner of the tourney.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Not neccessarily. To take an extreme example, using the numbers drmcboy used above, lets say the chip leader has 90% of the chips and there are two remaining players with 5% each. They may negotiate a deal whereby chip leader gets the full first prize (not giving up any) but the shorties get $120k each. Thats $20k more 'guaranteed' than they did before the deal, but they giveup a longshot at 1st.
Of course I think the millions are one of the "cant chop the entire remaining prizepool" tournies, so it wouldnt work exactly like that, but you get the idea. If the shorties think its worth it to guarantee themselves a better payout than the risk of being the next person out, the chip leader can be in a position to negotiate strongly.
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Just playing to improve.
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