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cburke
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02-20-2006, 05:09 AM
Post subject: Curiosity about new player experiences
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8
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Greetings,
I'm very new to holdem and I'm still trying to get a grasp on things. I've heard a lot of discussion about beginning players doing well their first few sessions and then not doing so well thereafter (at least until they improve into better players).
This phenomenum is also mentioned here of FTR in the "Newbiew Circle of Death" article. This has also happened to me and after some serious reflection I honestly can not seem to detect any difference in my play (unexperienced as it is).
So I was wondering if people have an opinion on why this seems to be a common occurance? Why don't we hear about the opposite (e.g. new players starting off bad the having an upswing)?
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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I assume that new players that have a starting downswing assume they suck and stop playing. Howver if you already won some and then lost some more you know you can beat the game
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fasin8ing
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,063
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Its about your comfort level and your BR management. If you play in a 5 dollar SNG and then you take your winnings 25.00, and go sit in a 20.00 SNG and lose, your playing outside your comfort zone and BR. Iam mastering playing cards correctly and decision making. It has taken a lot of money and time to study poker. But like everything with poker, dont make stupid decisons. Move up when your BR justifies it and your game is right for the next level. You will know when that time is. Newbie circle of death is somewhat true... Many other things can go right and wrong. I started out with 150.00, I have played well over 200 SNg's my bankroll is hung at 200.00 . I placed ITM 1/4th of the time. Good luck .
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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New players start off thinking they suck.
If they start on a downswing then they dont post about it. They just ask questions about how to get better.
If they start on an upswing then OMG THEY ARE THE KING OF POKAH COZ ITS EASY and they tell everyone about it.
Most new players probably start off losing...but we dont hear about it.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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if you start off bad, you take the time to learn the skill and the BR management because you're scared of losing more money.
if you start off good, it unfortunately is probably mostly not really due to anything you're doing right but moreso you got lucky, and once your lucky streak ends, your likely lack of br management and skill will send you crashing down again.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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I've noticed that within the 48 hrs after a deposit on stars in my first months of online poker, I'd get freaking lucky and triple/quad up... but I'd get greedy before i can withdraw my original $50 and bust it out within a day 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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dvda
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 76
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I think I may have read on this site, but I have read in many other places all over the web about online card rooms being fixed so new players always win to start out with, (I feel that is what you may be hinting at), and so they don’t bust out and never come back. I have not scene any evidence of this, so I don’t believe it, but would not totally rule this out given some evidence to back up these claims.
I too am new to hold’em and can tell you my own personal experience that I experienced a every small up to start of with and then lost 95% of my bankroll. Looking back this up was pure luck, and I lost 95% of my bankroll for a reason, playing way out of my bankroll (as mentioned above). I considered quitting, but made some post here asking maybe stupid question and will continue asking stupid questions, and now I’m grinding it out at the super small micro limits, were I should have started in the first place.
It’s mostly about bankroll management, good luck winning it all back!
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dvda
I think I may have read on this site, but I have read in many other places all over the web about online card rooms being fixed so new players always win to start out with, (I feel that is what you may be hinting at), and so they don’t bust out and never come back. I have not scene any evidence of this, so I don’t believe it, but would not totally rule this out given some evidence to back up these claims.
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I would totally rule this out.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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But yes, a sensible newbie will expect to lose at first, and will either give up or keep plugging away until they start consistently winning. However, the variance of poker is such that a fair minority of newcomers will win money for their first few sessions, and it's understandable, if naive, that they'll want to celebrate this.
The circle of death can happen in a couple of ways:
1) the newcomer's luck runs out, and they start to lose money as they're not yet very good
2) the newcomer has gained a decent understanding of the game and has the beginnings of a solid ability, but negative variance comes along and bites him on the arse
3) the newcomer has gained a decent understanding of the game and has the beginnings of a solid ability, and decides to try to develop his game to become laggier, or more aggressive, and loses money as they try and grasp more difficult and risky strategies.
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KingLizard
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
2) the newcomer has gained a decent understanding of the game and has the beginnings of a solid ability, but negative variance comes along and bites him on the arse
3) the newcomer has gained a decent understanding of the game and has the beginnings of a solid ability, and decides to try to develop his game to become laggier, or more aggressive, and loses money as they try and grasp more difficult and risky strategies.
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That's me in a nutshell ... start with $100 ... get to $200 and then don't see AA or KK for 400+ hands ... start to play more connectors and smallish PPs ... start to get more aggressive preflop (doubled my % according to PT) but then find I am beat when some yahoo is playing crap. It then becomes so defeating ... but then I go back to Plan A ... play tight and wait for the cards to improve ... ahhh ... the patience that is required is almost too much to handle at times.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Patience + Discipline = $$$
Simple as.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KingLizard
That's me in a nutshell ... start with $100 ... get to $200 and then don't see AA or KK for 400+ hands ... start to play crap but then find I am beat when some yahoo is playing crap.
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FYP
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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ProZachNation
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Over there!
Posts: 801
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dvda
I think I may have read on this site, but I have read in many other places all over the web about online card rooms being fixed so new players always win to start out with, (I feel that is what you may be hinting at), and so they don’t bust out and never come back. I have not scene any evidence of this, so I don’t believe it, but would not totally rule this out given some evidence to back up these claims.
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I would totally rule this out. |
I sat down at totalpoker at 10NL first hand I ever played there got delt AA and doubled up. RIGGGGGGED I TELL YOU.
Im guessing its what another guy said about they get real lucky talk shit and think they are the big man. Then when the streak runs out they come crying for help. If you start out sucking then we dont hear as much and you only go up as a player.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.
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Seasider
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bangor UK
Posts: 563
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dvda
I think I may have read on this site, but I have read in many other places all over the web about online card rooms being fixed so new players always win to start out with, (I feel that is what you may be hinting at), and so they don’t bust out and never come back. I have not scene any evidence of this, so I don’t believe it, but would not totally rule this out given some evidence to back up these claims.
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Online poker is rigged, we agreed on this some time ago.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i started off horrible
then i got good
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cburke
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dvda
I think I may have read on this site, but I have read in many other places all over the web about online card rooms being fixed so new players always win to start out with, (I feel that is what you may be hinting at), and so they don’t bust out and never come back. I have not scene any evidence of this, so I don’t believe it, but would not totally rule this out given some evidence to back up these claims.
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No, actually I'm not hinting at this. I don't believe any major online poker room is rigged. I think it's just to easy for people to gather data on their hands and known cards and compare them to statistical norms. Rigging the games such that they maintained proper random distributions yet let new players win (somehow) in such a way that it's not detectable I think is far beyond the expertise of most of these operations...
Just my 2 cents on that anyhow
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KingLizard
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KingLizard
That's me in a nutshell ... start with $100 ... get to $200 and then don't see AA or KK for 400+ hands ... start to play crap but then find I am beat when some yahoo is playing crap.
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FYP |
Not sure why the change ... but it's certainly not what I said or meant. Example: Got AA in MP, bet the pot (25PL ring), got one caller. He had J 3 o (not a stellar hand IMHO to be calling a pot sized bet). Flop is J 3 9 ... end of story. Don't think I "was playing crap" ...
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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You mentioned getting more aggressive with less than premium hands, essentially because you are on tilt caused by not seeing enough premium hands.
Clearly a hand where you hold AA doesnt fall into this catagory of weak hands you are playing because you "[havnt seen] AA or KK for 400+ hands ..."
If you are getting bored and playing worse starting hands, which it sounds like you are then you need to work on your discipline and consider playing more tables at one time so you dont play bored.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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KingLizard
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
You mentioned getting more aggressive with less than premium hands, essentially because you are on tilt caused by not seeing enough premium hands.
Clearly a hand where you hold AA doesnt fall into this catagory of weak hands you are playing because you "[havnt seen] AA or KK for 400+ hands ..."
If you are getting bored and playing worse starting hands, which it sounds like you are then you need to work on your discipline and consider playing more tables at one time so you dont play bored.
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OK ... agreed. I was probably saying two things at once. Fortunately, I have taken your advice (without having seen it yet) and have worked hard on the discipline and play 2 tables for now. Doubled my BR in 3 weeks (nothing huge mind you but still double). And I have "learned" to just ride out the bad starting hands and just fold and fold and fold.
Thanks.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Thats the first step 
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Patience + Discipline = $$$
Simple as.
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Bad players + Position + Gamble = Mo Money Mo Money Mo Money!!!!
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Patience + Discipline = $$$
Simple as.
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Position + Gamble = Mo Money Mo Money Mo Money!!!! |
Surely Gamble negates position?
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