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spoonitnow
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10-24-2008, 02:25 PM
Post subject: Could I have gotten away from this?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($54.80)
BB ($50)
UTG ($107.50)
UTG+1 ($29.25)
MP1 ($58.55)
MP2 ($61.55)
CO ($35.80)
Hero (Button) ($90.45)
Preflop: Hero is Button with A , A
5 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $16, SB calls $10
Flop: ($32.50) K , 10, 7 (2 players)
SB bets $38.80 (All-In), Hero calls $38.80
Turn: ($110.10) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($110.10) J (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $110.10 | Rake: $3
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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id fold
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Spoon, Spoon, Spoon. You know better than to post hands without giving us all of the information.
2. Give any stats or reads on the opponents in question. This includes any table image you may have as well. So many decisions in poker come down to our opponents' tendencies and what our opponents think of us at any given time, so if you don't post this information, you will rarely get good replies since it's often too difficult to determine what the best course of action is if you're only given the hand history and nothing else. As a result of posting stats and reads, you will get better replies, which will increase the benefit you receive from posting hands.
3. Don't show the results of the hand. This includes whatever action you took during the decision you're asking about. For example, instead of setting up a question like "Should I have called on the river here?" you should edit out your decision on that street and the result of the hand and ask something like "Is a call +EV here, or should I just fold?" If you post results, you skew the replies you get and the type of advice you can get in the hand, which will severely lower the potential for growth you have in posting any single particular hand.
Seriously though, I can't see a scenario where this is anything but a snap call. You are getting just under 2 to 1 and have 41% equity if his range is as tight at KK,TT,77,AKs,AKo.
The only way this is a fold is if you can take AKo out of the above range as then your equity drops to just under 18%
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
id fold
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how? wouldn't KK be all-in preflop? at least some/half the time?
seems to me his range includes enough QQ, AK(s) and draws that Hero's at least break-even EV to call.
but both of y'all are MUCH better at this game than me - so wtf do i know? but i'm never gettin' away from this.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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nh spoon (thread)
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gametight
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 494
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Fold preflop....
Youll have no idea where your at if the flop contains a K, Q, or a J.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Wait, spoon, is this one of those bass-ackwards posts where the question intentionally misdirects the responders? Just to see if we're awake?
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Monty3038
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10-24-2008, 04:29 PM
Post subject: Re: Could I have gotten away from this?
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#8 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($54.80)
BB ($50)
UTG ($107.50)
UTG+1 ($29.25)
MP1 ($58.55)
MP2 ($61.55)
CO ($35.80)
Hero (Button) ($90.45)
Preflop: Hero is Button with A , A
5 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $16, SB calls $10
Flop: ($32.50) K , 10 , 7 (2 players)
SB bets $38.80 (All-In), Hero calls $38.80
Turn: ($110.10) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($110.10) J (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $110.10 | Rake: $3
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Spoon, you offer a lot of insight on your posts, so I'm going to take this and see what I can do with it..
Pre-flop you are on the button and raise to 4xBB with no limpers ahead, standard raise here, but it looks like a steal if you have been stealing, if table is tight though this is an easy lay down for SB/BB... SB re-raises you, which could be a protecting his blind move or could be a legitimate hand... if you are reading him as tight this could indicate a very strong hand also... if he is standard player, could be a pretty wide range just defending against the steal...
Next you re-raise him... you totally have him covered... yet he flat calls... that re-raise by you has to worry him, IMO if I am SB it indicates to me you aren't screwing around, and I put you on pretty damn good cards, JJ+, AK and such. That is knowing a little about you, if my read on you is you are a loose cannon... that range opens up a bit more...
So he is comfortable playing against your tight range and flats it... but he's in trouble... he doesn't have enough behind to do much other than AI post-flop... he might have been better just getting it in pre-flop. I think if he shoved pre-flop to your re-raise you are looking at him holding KK or AA... thus the flat call leads me to his either slowplaying (maybe 20% of the time) vs his having TT+... so I think you are ahead of him pre-flop... the flop cards could have hit him four ways... or misssed him completely. He is either set up... or he is drawing for the diamond flush (with AdQd IMO) or there is the slim possibility he is sitting with QJ, though I think that is really remote.
He has seen your aggression and knows that you aren't laying down to any 1/2 or 2/3 pot bet... so his only option is fold or shove. He shoves... I think you are ahead here maybe 50% of the time... that isn't scientific, that is just a feeling... again without reads...
I think you have no choice but call... the turn isn't helpful... may have given him the boat, but what can you do?
Am I at least close here spoon or am I not getting any of this stuff down?
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jyms
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10-24-2008, 04:32 PM
Post subject: Re: Could I have gotten away from this?
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#9 (permalink)
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Could I have gotten away from this?
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No
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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How can we even think of laying this down?
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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it depends
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by killerkebab
How can we even think of laying this down?
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I don't know if I can actually DO it, but based on my readings, if you have a solid read on the player that he only calls this type of re-raise with AA or KK, the insta shove by him on the flop would almost indicate that he hit the set of kings.
In that case, if you are sure he hit the set, you have to fold. Am I right Spoon?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edaJP3Lp0Gg
Never gonna give you up...
Never gonna lay you down...
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Fnord.... Rick rolling the thread with the best response EVER.
Niiiiiice
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monty3038
but based on my readings, if you have a solid read on the player that he only calls this type of re-raise with AA or KK,
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If this was the case then this player would be broke from me 3 betting him into oblivion. If he's only calling 2/221 hands that are 3 bet into him
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GatorJH
Fnord.... Rick rolling the thread with the best response EVER.
Niiiiiice
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this^^^
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MuddyWicket
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
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surely a sensible villain should nearly never have AK here?
I always pay em off. its my biggest leak.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MuddyWicket
its my biggest leak.
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If this is your biggest leak, then you must be destroying $5/$10.
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vaks
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 331
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your not inducing misclicks this way spoon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMuUnAEAdA
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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hi level
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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There are a few people who obviously get the point of this post, and then there are a few who don't but I appreciate everyone who took it seriously.
The point is that I'm tired of seeing threads like these where people have a good overpair with a low SPR and somehow have questions about the hand:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...er-t77676.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...op-t77538.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...fr-t77340.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...fr-t77344.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...rn-t76732.html
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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MuddyWicket
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
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lol. 5/10 cents more like! obviously only to work on my game... btw its a fknhugeleakatm.
how likely would you have AK here preflop? surely you would have shoved it more often than not? (other than against a right tighty) I want to see all the cards, not just three.
QQ is an ijit if hes shoving against spoon 4bets here.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MuddyWicket
lol. 5/10 cents more like! obviously only to work on my game... btw its a fknhugeleakatm.
how likely would you have AK here preflop? surely you would have shoved it more often than not? (other than against a right tighty) I want to see all the cards, not just three.
QQ is an ijit if hes shoving against spoon 4bets here.
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If I recall correctly, my range after I 4-bet preflop here is something like QQ+, AK, AQs-A2s against this particular Villain.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
Wait, spoon, is this one of those bass-ackwards posts where the question intentionally misdirects the responders? Just to see if we're awake?
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^^^this
BTW, you linked a thread of mine: we're #1!!, we're #1!!
No one really answered/discussed the main question I asked - which wasn't about that specific hand.
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fat-b
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 117
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leave preflop ! you almoust have 200bbs at the table
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,518
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
The point is that I'm tired of seeing threads like these where people have a good overpair with a low SPR and somehow have questions about the hand:
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Yeah it's so irritating when n00bs aren't as confident in their game as someone who's played for 4 years and have to ask questions when their aces get cracked. Gawd!
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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god do you really 4x it otb?
so gross
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,448
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fat-b
leave preflop ! you almoust have 200bbs at the table
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Bwahahaha. Moar monies to lose faster amirite?
Obv its a never fold but youve said it already but Baaards post was too good to pass.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
[
Yeah it's so irritating when n00bs aren't as confident in their game as someone who's played for 4 years and have to ask questions when their aces get cracked. Gawd!
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Oh no you di-int.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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this is why you'll never be mod of the BC, even Courtiee knows you cannot fold here!
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
this is why you'll never be mod of the BC, even Courtiee knows you cannot fold here!
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Are you sure?
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...highlight=fold
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
god do you really 4x it otb?
so gross
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This is mostly a matter of fashion.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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yea, gross fashion
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JinxT4
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 265
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
god do you really 4x it otb?
so gross
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Why is it gross?
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[04:18] <+Bbickes> do u has teh agoraphobia?
[04:18] <+fat> im agressive yes
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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cuz it like immediately brings down an ev of a steal by a decent %
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GatorJH
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man, this thread will never die!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
cuz it like immediately brings down an ev of a steal by a decent %
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Is 3.5x a good number to steal with?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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if it's two nits in the blinds I go like 2.5-3
I played like 200 hands of 50nl FR today and just opened 3x everywhere but SB and UTG-UTG+2
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GHOST 24 7
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: california
Posts: 20
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
if it's two nits in the blinds I go like 2.5-3
I played like 200 hands of 50nl FR today and just opened 3x everywhere but SB and UTG-UTG+2
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3bet for me just don't work cats call with ease but to answer the real question is I snap call with pocket rockets here only thing u had to worry about is the flush draw or pocket kings but if he had kings he would have shoved pre flop
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3bet means re-raise FYI
like you raise and I 3bet
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JinxT4
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 265
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
if it's two nits in the blinds I go like 2.5-3
I played like 200 hands of 50nl FR today and just opened 3x everywhere but SB and UTG-UTG+2
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Seems like a style thing. From what I've noticed, most people do 4x everywhere. Fwiw, I used to do 3, but then I tried 4 & realized how much better I liked that.
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[04:18] <+Bbickes> do u has teh agoraphobia?
[04:18] <+fat> im agressive yes
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I vary my bet sizing depending on the blinds
some blinds I can take down with a minraise, some I have to bet 3.5x
especially if the blinds are shortstacks that either 3bshove or fold
also, I haven't seen this, but if someone 3bets me light I guess I'd raise slightly less to offset the fact that I'm not even seeing flops against that villain
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I think his range is a lot of AdQd here. You need to get a feel for the cards that will come and adjust your game accordingly.
You should brush up on ESP and numerology.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
cuz it like immediately brings down an ev of a steal by a decent %
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Can you elaborate? Because from my experience players almost never 3-bet light at 50NL, call way too much OOP, and play really bad post-flop. With all that in mind, I'd think your better off raising even more rather than less preflop. Or are you speaking about FR specifically?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
cuz it like immediately brings down an ev of a steal by a decent %
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Can you elaborate? Because from my experience players almost never 3-bet light at 50NL, call way too much OOP, and play really bad post-flop. With all that in mind, I'd think your better off raising even more rather than less preflop. Or are you speaking about FR specifically? |
Well this was a FullRing spot, however, I open like 3x OTB at FR and 6max and sometimes minraise or 2.5x it.
There's nothing wrong with forcing nits to play more pots OOP either.
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Zel
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 60
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"Fold preflop....
Youll have no idea where your at if the flop contains a K, Q, or a J."
??????
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