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Continuation betting and semibluffing.

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LoveisHell

07-11-2008, 07:49 PM Post subject: Continuation betting and semibluffing.

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 32

Hello, I have some questions about semibluffing and cbetting.

I think I read in PNLHE that you should consider to bet when you have only little equity in a hand, and on the other hand be inclined to check or call when your equity is large.. How does this affect cbetting?

Example 1.
Everybody folds to the button who opens with 89s and only the BB calls.
The flop is QJ2 rainbow, giving you a gut shot straight draw. BB checks. Since you have so little equity you should bet because this is probably the only spot where you can try to win the hand.

Example 2.
Everybody folds to the button who opens with A7s and only the BB calls. The flop is T82 2-tone (includes a flush draw). Now you have the nut flush draw and a overcard to the board. Now should we be more inclined to check this flop back to see if we hit, because we have lot of equity in the hand and some showdown value with the ace alone?

(Example 1) Also how much does it change the situation if the opponent is aggressive or passive. If he is passive we should still bet in example 1, because the amount of equity we have in the hand? And if he's aggressive and more likely to bet us off our hand, should we the check behind and give up on the turn if we miss and he bets?

(Example 2) If he's is passive and propbably call our bet, should we still semibluff cbet to grow the pot if we hit and to try to get out opponent to fold. But if our opponent is aggressive should we check behind because there is a possibility that he might raise and put us in a tought spot.

Sorry for the rambling and the possible typos. I didn't have time to check it. Hope you can give me some advice for me because I'm a habitual cbetter and cbet almost every flop. Trying to cut that back and need some help.

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Ragnar4

07-12-2008, 05:11 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

cbetting is pretty much a requirement at my level. Only one other player at the table is capable of a float.

To be honest, I struggle with this concept as well, but it seems to me that semi-bluffs are more important on the turn than the flop. C-Betting every flop that is unco-ordinated and doesn't hit your opponents range is +ev imo.

It's the turn that you're making decisions like this, because A) your opponents range narrows, and B) the percentage you need to hit your hand is much more clear.

Sauce's noob 6-max guide suggests shoving your largest draws on the turn. I'm guessing anysort of a combo draw (like a flushdraw with a pair, or a straight flush draw, or a gutshot straight with 2 overs.) due to FE plus the fact that at that point the pot should be pretty large, and you'll be putting in only a little bit more than the size of the pot.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say with that ramble is this: Semibluffs should be math based, more than feel based.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

LoveisHell

07-12-2008, 03:05 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 32

I don't know if I like shoving the turn with a draw quite often, because my equity is half what is was on the flop. And when playing microstakes opponents just call to often for that to be too profitable.

Robb

07-12-2008, 09:56 PM Post subject: Re: Continuation betting and semibluffing.

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveisHell

Hello, I have some questions about semibluffing and cbetting.

For cbetting advice, I recommend these threads: Spoon's Good Example of When to Cbet and A Good Example of When Not to Cbet. These are two threads that got me thinking more coherently about cbetting.

Also some postflop play threads on related topics: Blindstealing 101 and Raising Behind Limpers by Spoonitnow. Great stuff about playing late position hands in unraised pots. Check out ilikeaces 86 simple way to beat 6max, which is a great post and even better discussion including thoughts from some FTR icons like Gabe and ISF. Not everyone agrees, which is great, imo. OP was edited and lists several very strong points for any 6max player to consider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveisHell

I think I read in PNLHE that you should consider to bet when you have only little equity in a hand, and on the other hand be inclined to check or call when your equity is large.. How does this affect cbetting?

Most cbets are an implementation of "being inclined to be when you only have a little equity in the hand," although the line between cbetting and semibluffing isn't clear cut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveisHell

Example 1.
Everybody folds to the button who opens with 89s and only the BB calls.
The flop is QJ2 rainbow, giving you a gut shot straight draw. BB checks. Since you have so little equity you should bet because this is probably the only spot where you can try to win the hand.

Example 2.
Everybody folds to the button who opens with A7s and only the BB calls. The flop is T82 2-tone (includes a flush draw). Now you have the nut flush draw and a overcard to the board. Now should we be more inclined to check this flop back to see if we hit, because we have lot of equity in the hand and some showdown value with the ace alone?

I'm betting both hands, but for different reasons than you mentioned. I would open raise 98s from the BTN as a blind steal and be ready to 2barrel virtually any flop. Here, our position is worth a lot more than our cards, so we use it.

In hand 2, I'm raising to build a pot. I still don't have a made hand. But I've got fold equity and a VERY playable hand on the turn. I play this just like I would play KK on a Txx flop, like I'm value towning it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveisHell

(Example 1) Also how much does it change the situation if the opponent is aggressive or passive. If he is passive we should still bet in example 1, because the amount of equity we have in the hand? And if he's aggressive and more likely to bet us off our hand, should we the check behind and give up on the turn if we miss and he bets?

(Example 2) If he's is passive and propbably call our bet, should we still semibluff cbet to grow the pot if we hit and to try to get out opponent to fold. But if our opponent is aggressive should we check behind because there is a possibility that he might raise and put us in a tought spot.

Cbetting is VERY read dependent. I cbet MORE against aggressive players since they will either raise or fold. Against passive players, it's read dependent. Hand 1 is NOT good to cbet against a station since he'll be hard to force off the hand and since we have so little value. But I would still cbet it - I'm just not blind stealing as much against known stations. "Don't try to steal blinds that can't be stolen," as the saying goes. If I'm in this hand, I'm cbetting 99% of the time. If I can't cbet it, I lay it down pre.

Yes, build a pot in Hand 2 - don't worry too much about agro players raising. Overshoving will be +EV in most situations with this many outs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveisHell

Hope you can give me some advice for me because I'm a habitual cbetter and cbet almost every flop. Trying to cut that back and need some help.

See the threads I linked above. If you're cbetting too much, you need to back up a step and think about your preflop play. Cbetting with AJ oop sucks, in general, so open it less EP/MP preflop. Also, I open/limp/fold the same hand in the same position differently based on the players left to act preflop. I'm looking preflop for situations that will allow me to be aggressive with cbetting postflop. This generally means tight and VERY positionally adjusted ranges preflop.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

LoveisHell

07-13-2008, 03:02 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 32

Thanks, Robb. Great reply. I'll check out the links you posted. I'm playing NL25-NL50 6max, so is it really profitable to fold AJ from MP?

My UTG range consist of AA-22, ATs+, KQo+.
My MP range includes UTG range and ATo+ and maybe some suited connectors depending on the table. Do you have some advice on starting hands from UTG and MP?

Robb

07-13-2008, 03:33 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveisHell

I play tighter than this UTG: AQ+, 22+, no KQ (all pp's for an open raise from all positions). You're UTG range is my MP range. But CO (in unraised pots) I will raise A9+, Axs+, KJ+. BTN (in unraised pots), I will raise up any Ace, K7s+, Q9s+ and pretty much anything that seems to be in the Top Third of hands. I open about 3x more hands from the BTN than from UTG, mostly for raises.

But my opening range depends on reads and who's left to act. With a 70/30 agro player in the blinds, I'm ditching mediocre hands, looking for hands more like KT to raise with - something I learned from Fnord: we need big cards to attack super-loose players' wide opening/flatting ranges. The reason I can play so wide open from LP is because there are fewer players left to act behind me, with fewer reads to "like" before I make a move. I will open A9 from UTG if I have solid reads on EVERYONE at the table, and think it will be profitable. But that doesn't happen very often at all.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

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