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Constant 3 better, passive line ok? 10nl

  
 
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NoPantsPoker
Old 05-13-2009, 06:41 AM     Post subject: Constant 3 better, passive line ok? 10nl #1 (permalink)  
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Villain was running 31/27/67 with a 22.7 3 bet. I only had 52 hands on him, but he was obviously being aggressive. He had 3 bet the last 3-4 of my raises in position and I was pretty sure he was just trying to abuse me.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars

Hero (CO) ($11.95)
Button ($19.20)
SB ($10.30)
BB ($4.65)
UTG ($11.50)
MP ($10.30)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9d, Ad
2 folds, Hero bets $0.40, Button raises to $1.45, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.05

Flop: ($3.05) 8h, As, 3h (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.15, Hero calls $2.15

Turn: ($7.35) 10d (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

River: ($7.35) Ac (2 players)
Hero [?]

On the flop I hit my ace. I figured he would bet if I checked so I did. He made a bet and I figured I was ahead. I could have re-raised him but I figured I was ahead and wanted to give him a chance to bluff again.

Turn wasn't scare card, so I checked again trying to get him to bet. HE checked, ok, I figured I would make a value bet depending on what the river was.

Great river card for me. I thought if I bet he was definitely going to fold. I figured checking might be best in this case for the following reasons. If I checked and he bet, I could c/r him. If he checked behind I could see what he was 3-betting me with and he would see that I see it, so maybe he would stop 3 betting me so light.

I would also like to point out that I am rarely this passive in a pot. I am usually the aggressor. This time it just seemed like the passive line would be the most profitable.

Is my thinking off on this one?
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:21 AM #2 (permalink)  
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All in preflop. I know it's a small sample, but he's being overly aggressive preflop

given he can call with 2.7% of his range (JJ+,AcKc,AhKh,AsKs,AcKd,AcKh,AcKs,AhKc,AhKd,AhKs, AsKc,AsKd,AsKh)
and we're 29% against that range
if his real 3b frequency in that spot is only 10% and he's been getting good cards we're still WINNING MONEY due to fold equity
but given that he's IP, you're on the CO and you open wider from the CO and he's on the button, he should be 3bing you REALLY wide
maybe even 30%
and he's calling only 2.7%

the total pot is 24.05 if he calls
we win $7 on average when he calls so we're -$4.55 EV when called
we gain $2 when he folds
we break even if he calls 44% of the time

but given our read he's calling probably no more than 30% of the time and as little as 10% of the time unless he calls really wide

flatting 3bs OOP is not the way to go
you could try to 4b small, but given that his 3b is lol huge I just want to shove
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Monty3038
Old 05-13-2009, 03:47 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I'm looking at this and... well... I guess I'm ok with the flat pre-flop but I really wouldn't have gotten into it with someone very aggro without a little more than A9... but I'm a bit conservative. I had typed out a whole analysis of the hand the way through... but I delete it... I'm just not sure A9 is enough for me to comfortably get into this with him.
 
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Stacks
Old 05-13-2009, 04:03 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I wouldn't call OOP here. However, A9s is a good hand to 4bet bluff with, assuming we don't think villain with 5b bluff shove us the first few times we 4bet. I'd probably make it like $2.80, and fold to a ship from him.

It's basically the same thing IOPQ is suggesting; however, by 4betting small instead of shoving it doesn't have to work as often (as you are risking less) to be profitable. And if we expect him to felt the same range, then without doing any calculations it seems it would be more +EV to 4bet small/fold (as we win the same when he folds, and risk less when we are behind).

Also assuming we aren't 4bet shoving our value hands, 4betting small/folding is going to be more balanced than just 4bet shoving.
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bigspenda73
Old 05-13-2009, 08:05 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 fold PF first time around
raise smaller PF
jam/fold PF 2nd time around

I dislike 4betting small in this spot
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surviva316
Old 05-13-2009, 08:31 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 this might be too nitty, but i tend to tighten my opening range in the CO if i know that i'm gonna get 3bet so damned much by the BU. I mean we can essentially treat this like we're not in LP because we're going to be OOP post flop so much.

in other words, if you don't feel comfortable flatting a likely 3bet from the BU with a given hand (A9s is a good example of a hand that doesn't play well OOP in a 3bet pot), or if you don't feel comfortable 4betting with a given hand (i don't mind bluff shoving here), then i don't think we should feel comfortable playing the hand at all.

in conclusion, playing A9s in the CO with a preflop aggro to your left sucks ass, so i'm probably leaving the table, or switching seats at the first available opportunity.
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Stacks
Old 05-13-2009, 10:49 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I dislike 4betting small in this spot
Care to elaborate on the reasoning? I'm not against shoving, but how can 4betting small keeping with balance, and risking less (making the bluff have to work less often to be +EV) be bad?

Unless you expect him to be 5b bluffing or flatting our 4bets often, which I think might be the problem.
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bigspenda73
Old 05-13-2009, 11:16 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 he's never gonna fold to a small 4bet

NEVAR
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:43 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
I wouldn't call OOP here. However, A9s is a good hand to 4bet bluff with, assuming we don't think villain with 5b bluff shove us the first few times we 4bet. I'd probably make it like $2.80, and fold to a ship from him.

It's basically the same thing IOPQ is suggesting; however, by 4betting small instead of shoving it doesn't have to work as often (as you are risking less) to be profitable. And if we expect him to felt the same range, then without doing any calculations it seems it would be more +EV to 4bet small/fold (as we win the same when he folds, and risk less when we are behind).

Also assuming we aren't 4bet shoving our value hands, 4betting small/folding is going to be more balanced than just 4bet shoving.
actually with these stack sizes AND HIS HUGE 3b IP 4b shoving is not terrible at all because we're gaining fold equity if we shove because it makes him fold his possible 5b bluffs
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NoPantsPoker
Old 05-24-2009, 04:30 AM #10 (permalink)  
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ok, similar situation here. I was in the SB this time

Villain was 37/28/2.5 with a 56% steal / 4 bet 29% after 200+ hands on him

I had tried to re-steal a couple times before and he 4 bet me both times. Is this a good case for 5-bet Shoving kinda light? Or is it just spew?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars

saw flop | saw showdown

MP ($17.15)
Button ($10.45)
SB ($12.75)
Hero (BB) ($11)
UTG ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qh, Jd
3 folds, SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1.20, SB raises to $3.60, Hero ???
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