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IowaSkinsFan
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12-17-2008, 05:00 PM
Post subject: Concepts of poker 101
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I've often thought to myself that there is definitely a better way of learning poker than reading forums, watching videos, and posting hands. I remember a talk my brother had with Barry Greenstein where Greenstein pretty much stated he thought forums were trash, because people needed to be discussing different things than is normally the culture. I tend to agree with this sentiment, however I'm still not sure what the best way to learn is. There are two paths you can go on. One, you can play poker through guides and memorization and ignore understanding and concepts, and only focus on concepts later after you have a lot of experience. Or two, You can focus on concepts from the very beginning. I'd like to think two is the best way, but on the other hand without basic experience and hand reading ability you need an enlightened master to convey concepts to you.
That being said, I'd still like to teach you all concepts of poker that especially need to be focused on as fundamentals.
1. Texas Holdem is a game where you need to fold a lot
This is an inherit quality of the game. No matter how good you are, you are not going to win money without playing tight OOP. There are two reasons for this. One, think of the percentages. Every person who hasnt acted has a certain % chance to have AA (aka nut hands), which discourages us to play a marginal holding. Think of it this way, if we knew an opponent had AA preflop, would we put any money in preflop? NO! It's the same concept, accept we know that one opponent will have a nut hand x% of the time since they were all dealt cards.
2. Texas Holdem is a game where you need to do a lot of betting.
I give this as general advice for low stakes players, but any time where you were the pre flop raiser or have initiative, AND you know if you check you are going to call a bet, bet! If thats confusing, heres an example. You raise preflop in MP, get a caller on the button. Flop comes something. You bet and opponent calls. Turn is something. You have a pretty good hand, good enough to the point where if you were to check you are calling a bet. In this situation, you should bet the turn. This is the reason why. Our opponents at low stakes normally all have similar qualities. First, they don't value bet thinly. Secondly, they are passive, do not bluff very much, if at all. So pretty much this means that there is not more value in checking than there is in betting. Also, when we are betting or raising if gives us an opportunity to more profitably bluff, since there is no such thing as call bluffing!
3. Texas Holdem is a game where we try to exploit our opponents mistakes
Why are people advocating playing a super tight style? Why are people advocating not bluffing very much? It's simply because thats the best way to exploit fishes tendencies. Since our opponents simply dont fold enough, and since sometimes we run into maniacs, we can easily win money by playing stronger ranges than our opponents. If we play loose and bluff a lot, we weaken our ranges overall and our actually theoretically throwing money at our opponent.
Hope that helped, I'm not sure how I'm going to continue to contribute to the BC but I've been inspired to try to help.
-Danny[/b]
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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+1
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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i think this is a neat post. Now over-under on number of replies stating just that?
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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also, might i suggest giving direct hand advice? or atleast writing a post on the flaws of such help?
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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grindinginnj
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Grinding In New Jersey!!
Posts: 143
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I like that!
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Stackin chips and rippin lips!!
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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I like Greenstein's advice. Most forum discussion revolves around the how (correct lines, etc) and not as much on the why.
Oh, I think this is a neat post.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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OhBollocks
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin
Posts: 240
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Much <3 for ISF in the BC 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Nothing actually changes in a poker game besides equity....
When we can maximize our equity, we will make lots and lots of money.
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KnightofBud
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12-18-2008, 02:53 AM
Post subject: tight aggresives not paying off
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#8 (permalink)
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Springfield,Ohio
Posts: 3
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I ve been trying to play just premium hands in MTT, but it isn't paying off as much as i thought it would. I mean, even with 5-6x blinds raise pre flop, my AKs is still getting called by donk, like ace crap off, which means when the flop comes ace-4-9 rainbow, im beat with two pair over my top pair top kicker. I just need some advice on something, I feel lost sometimes.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Check out the tourney thread. I don't MTT, but I'm pretty sure your strategy won't work too well. You're playing nitty, so you're not in many hands. When you do get a hand, you won't get action, so it's hard to build a stack.
The way you're playing now is more suited for donkish cash games, where players don't pay much attention to VP$P/PFR%, etc.
Don't get me wrong...pre-flop hand selection is the first skill you need to develop. But you also need to be positionally aware, and know the difference in value with JTs UTG vs on the button. If you only play premium hands, you become LOL easy to read.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I swear I just had this same conversation with a guy in IRC like 2 hours ago.
It's good to see you posting here.
You also forgot #4:
4. Texas Holdem (aka the Cadillac of poker) is a game where we put our opponents at decisions for their stacks
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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very nice post dude.
i remember seeing something about a year ago - an article or long post describing how the author would go about teaching poker to someone with no poker knowledge.
It may have been a post here? or some strat site? a blog? not sure.
It struck me as one of the smarter pieces of poker writing I'd seen at the time. I have a feeling that it talked about poker as a game where you are stronger or weaker, and neither player knows for sure most of the time, and how betting works. And that the basic premise of poker is taking chips from other players - a form of game theory trading. and that relative hand strength should come very late in the teaching process.
Anyone know the article I mean? maybe someone here has a link/wrote it?
This is good, but not the one I'm looking for
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ginner%20poker
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gingerwizard
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12-18-2008, 11:29 AM
Post subject: Re: tight aggresives not paying off
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#12 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,815
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Great post ISF.
I also wanted to make a comment to the guy who wrote this.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KnightofBud
I ve been trying to play just premium hands in MTT, but it isn't paying off as much as i thought it would. I mean, even with 5-6x blinds raise pre flop, my AKs is still getting called by donk, like ace crap off, which means when the flop comes ace-4-9 rainbow, im beat with two pair over my top pair top kicker. I just need some advice on something, I feel lost sometimes.
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The situation you gave has to happen sometimes. Truth is Acrap is exactly the hand we want calling us when we raise with AK. Most of the time they do not hit 2 pair, and you win. Over time that is how you make money.
You have to understand when you have done the right thing and fallen victim to chance, and when you have done the wrong thing and lost. Opening up at donk stakes is riduculous, as you exploit their weakness for playing crap less.
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This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
i think this is a neat post. Now over-under on number of replies stating just that?...also, might i suggest giving direct hand advice? or atleast writing a post on the flaws of such help?
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o/u? i put it at 40 before christmas.
direct hand stuff may not be danny's forte`. not that he doesnt know the lines. he is just stronger with macro concepts, imo. it wouldnt be a bad thing to have ISF doing macro stuff, Spoon doing micro (maths) stuff, and leaving the HHs to us donkeys to argue about until a more experienced player comes in to set everyone straight.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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caddie444
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12-18-2008, 08:44 PM
Post subject: Re: Concepts of poker 101
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#14 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: constantly UTG
Posts: 723
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Good Post! Though I have one question...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Think of it this way, if we knew an opponent had AA preflop, would we put any money in preflop? NO!
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Isn't this exactly what we are hoping for when we set mine or when our implied odds are large??
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Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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It all has to do with the amount to call and relative stack sizes. Sklansky sets up a great example playing $1000 NLHE with AA vs JJ where it is +EV to call with the Jacks.
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Yes, but he could have AK, AQ in which case we're screwed because we don't know if we get paid when we hit, and if we try to bluff he can still still have hit a pair on a Qxx flop and call us.
I'm pretty sure if I have AK, and you hold 22 and I raise PF and you call that I'll be the one making money, not you.
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KnightofBud
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Springfield,Ohio
Posts: 3
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Thx guys, they say u only get better learning from better players and playing more. So, in other words, early game(short stacks), call and let the board justify my reaction, late game(deeper stacks), make em pay to see the flop? I was talking to some one the other day and they said I needed to loosen my play up too(playing a larger range of hands) and get better at putting my opponents on a hand. But 1 more question, should I keep playing lower stakes until I get better at putting my opponents on a hand? Could playing the lower stakes be part of my problem too?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KnightofBud
Could playing the lower stakes be part of my problem too?
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No.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KnightofBud
Could playing the lower stakes be part of my problem too?
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No. |
+1
Read Bankroll Managment. Apply it, and do not deviate. It's Tilt Insurance.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KnightofBud
But 1 more question, should I keep playing lower stakes until I get better at putting my opponents on a hand? Could playing the lower stakes be part of my problem too?
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If you can't beat lower stakes, you're gonna get CRUSHED at higher stakes.
Anyway, great post ISF, I especially like your first point. I'm gonna get a buddy who wants to pick up poker started on saturday, these are some good core concepts to tell him.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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wesrman
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 654
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Neat post ISF.
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PlayToWin
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12-23-2008, 06:11 AM
Post subject: Re: Concepts of poker 101
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#22 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 606
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Also, when we are betting or raising if gives us an opportunity to more profitably bluff, since there is no such thing as call bluffing!
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Thanks for the lessons and continuing to help the BC. The above quote is a little confusing in this context. First, you are advocating betting instead of calling, which I understand. But then you end by talking about profitably bluffing. At what point are you turning your "good hand" into a bluff. You're not talking about bluffing the River after villian calls the Flop and Turn are you? At what stakes does bluffing become profitable? For this to be a "great post", we need more information. You go on, in point #3 to discourage bluffing. What's up with that?
I do bluff occasionally in 5NL/10NL, but tend to try it with a strong c-bet or sometimes a check/raise on a missed flop. If I'm called, then I'll get away from the hand.
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bluffing is not stakes-dependent, it's opponent-dependent
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allabout
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12-23-2008, 12:38 PM
Post subject: Re: Concepts of poker 101
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#24 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: VA USA
Posts: 276
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PlayToWin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Also, when we are betting or raising if gives us an opportunity to more profitably bluff, since there is no such thing as call bluffing!
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Thanks for the lessons and continuing to help the BC. The above quote is a little confusing in this context. First, you are advocating betting instead of calling, which I understand. But then you end by talking about profitably bluffing. At what point are you turning your "good hand" into a bluff. You're not talking about bluffing the River after villian calls the Flop and Turn are you? At what stakes does bluffing become profitable? For this to be a "great post", we need more information. You go on, in point #3 to discourage bluffing. What's up with that?
I do bluff occasionally in 5NL/10NL, but tend to try it with a strong c-bet or sometimes a check/raise on a missed flop. If I'm called, then I'll get away from the hand. |
I definitely can't speak for what ISF was saying but this is how I read and understand it... We can't bluff profitably if no one believes we have a good hand. If we have no history, they are probably going to call down lighter. If we've shown that we will be aggressive with good hands then they will give our bets more respect and might lay down marginal hands that beat our bluff. Am I close?
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
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kettleofish
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Helllllo Richard
Posts: 333
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^^ Actually i think what ISF means is it's unpossible to bluff without betting...
To simplify, when was the last time you bluffed somebody of a better hand by calling them down?
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There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kettleofish
^^ Actually i think what ISF means is it's unpossible to bluff without betting...
To simplify, when was the last time you bluffed somebody of a better hand by calling them down?
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Yep, although there's more to it...
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IowaSkinsFan
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12-23-2008, 11:38 PM
Post subject: Re: Concepts of poker 101
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#27 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PlayToWin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Also, when we are betting or raising it gives us an opportunity to more profitably bluff, since there is no such thing as call bluffing!
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Thanks for the lessons and continuing to help the BC. The above quote is a little confusing in this context. First, you are advocating betting instead of calling, which I understand. But then you end by talking about profitably bluffing. At what point are you turning your "good hand" into a bluff. You're not talking about bluffing the River after villian calls the Flop and Turn are you? At what stakes does bluffing become profitable? For this to be a "great post", we need more information. You go on, in point #3 to discourage bluffing. What's up with that?
I do bluff occasionally in 5NL/10NL, but tend to try it with a strong c-bet or sometimes a check/raise on a missed flop. If I'm called, then I'll get away from the hand. |
I think what I didn't make clear is my macro points and my micro point. My micro point regarding #3 is since our opponents at low stakes play a certain way we are likely not going to do much bluffing. However, the idea of bluffing, forming ranges, and maximizing equity, are macro concepts of poker that go beyond specific situations. Literally, the goal of poker is to maximize money won. Go down a level or two and you find concepts on how to go about this. For me, I never see poker as I have KQ UTG now, most of my thoughts are " Okay if opp is cbetting this flop x% of the time, how strong is that range, what type of range is it (polarized, flat), how does that affect how strong or weak his other ranges are and how do I form ranges to exploit it the most.
It's hard for me to explain it since I'm talking from a perspective of knowingness, while all of you likely don't see these concepts as clearly as I do. If you don't understand this post just let it sit in your mind and allow your unconscious to process it. Your unconscious mind is strong, what you'll likely find is one day, while thinking about poker, you'll look back at this and have some sort of epiphany.
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a500lbgorilla
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12-24-2008, 01:05 AM
Post subject: Re: Concepts of poker 101
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#28 (permalink)
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PlayToWin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Also, when we are betting or raising it gives us an opportunity to more profitably bluff, since there is no such thing as call bluffing!
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Thanks for the lessons and continuing to help the BC. The above quote is a little confusing in this context. First, you are advocating betting instead of calling, which I understand. But then you end by talking about profitably bluffing. At what point are you turning your "good hand" into a bluff. You're not talking about bluffing the River after villian calls the Flop and Turn are you? At what stakes does bluffing become profitable? For this to be a "great post", we need more information. You go on, in point #3 to discourage bluffing. What's up with that?
I do bluff occasionally in 5NL/10NL, but tend to try it with a strong c-bet or sometimes a check/raise on a missed flop. If I'm called, then I'll get away from the hand. |
I think what I didn't make clear is my macro points and my micro point. My micro point regarding #3 is since our opponents at low stakes play a certain way we are likely not going to do much bluffing. However, the idea of bluffing, forming ranges, and maximizing equity, are macro concepts of poker that go beyond specific situations. Literally, the goal of poker is to maximize money won. Go down a level or two and you find concepts on how to go about this. For me, I never see poker as I have KQ UTG now, most of my thoughts are " Okay if opp is cbetting this flop x% of the time, how strong is that range, what type of range is it (polarized, flat), how does that affect how strong or weak his other ranges are and how do I form ranges to exploit it the most.
It's hard for me to explain it since I'm talking from a perspective of knowingness, while all of you likely don't see these concepts as clearly as I do. If you don't understand this post just let it sit in your mind and allow your unconscious to process it. Your unconscious mind is strong, what you'll likely find is one day, while thinking about poker, you'll look back at this and have some sort of epiphany. |
I will say this, ISF. I love when great minds post their specific thought processes. Because then I can try to "be like Mike" internally. It's how I learn most effectively.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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daven
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12-24-2008, 05:16 AM
Post subject: Re: Concepts of poker 101
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#29 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I think what I didn't make clear is my macro points and my micro point. My micro point regarding #3 is since our opponents at low stakes play a certain way we are likely not going to do much bluffing. However, the idea of bluffing, forming ranges, and maximizing equity, are macro concepts of poker that go beyond specific situations. Literally, the goal of poker is to maximize money won. Go down a level or two and you find concepts on how to go about this. For me, I never see poker as I have KQ UTG now, most of my thoughts are " Okay if opp is cbetting this flop x% of the time, how strong is that range, what type of range is it (polarized, flat), how does that affect how strong or weak his other ranges are and how do I form ranges to exploit it the most.
It's hard for me to explain it since I'm talking from a perspective of knowingness, while all of you likely don't see these concepts as clearly as I do. If you don't understand this post just let it sit in your mind and allow your unconscious to process it. Your unconscious mind is strong, what you'll likely find is one day, while thinking about poker, you'll look back at this and have some sort of epiphany.
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this is liquid gold - great post
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nice_aiau
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12-24-2008, 01:59 PM
Post subject: Re: Concepts of poker 101
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#30 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Posts: 260
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I think what I didn't make clear is my macro points and my micro point. My micro point regarding #3 is since our opponents at low stakes play a certain way we are likely not going to do much bluffing. However, the idea of bluffing, forming ranges, and maximizing equity, are macro concepts of poker that go beyond specific situations. Literally, the goal of poker is to maximize money won. Go down a level or two and you find concepts on how to go about this. For me, I never see poker as I have KQ UTG now, most of my thoughts are " Okay if opp is cbetting this flop x% of the time, how strong is that range, what type of range is it (polarized, flat), how does that affect how strong or weak his other ranges are and how do I form ranges to exploit it the most.
It's hard for me to explain it since I'm talking from a perspective of knowingness, while all of you likely don't see these concepts as clearly as I do. If you don't understand this post just let it sit in your mind and allow your unconscious to process it. Your unconscious mind is strong, what you'll likely find is one day, while thinking about poker, you'll look back at this and have some sort of epiphany.
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this is liquid gold - great post |
+1
I just read this three times. I stopped my music the third time.
I strive towards the day of the 'epiphany'
...and I am excited
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