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minSim
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05-24-2009, 02:03 PM
Post subject: Common spot with a small PP OOP I'm not feeling frisky about
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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This is a common spot I'm not feeling happy about. We're OOP with a small on a (low) paired flop against an aggressive villain, without initiative.
Our hand has little chance of improving. Villain will most barrel.
In the hand below I just folded. Of course the other option is calling, but if we're not calling turn barrels on certain cards that's the worse choice. So I guess what I'm looking for is if c/fing is standard, and if not what turn cards you'd generally call a barrel on.
This hand villain plays 34/26/2.5 over 100 hands.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($15)
CO ($25.15)
Button ($22.70)
Hero (SB) ($28.95)
BB ($19)
UTG ($22.85)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 3 , 3
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button bets $1, Hero calls $0.90, 2 folds
Flop: ($2.50) 2 , 7 , 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2, Hero folds
Also, how would you play a hand like KQo in the same situation?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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fold PF
ez game
I'd 3bet a small% of the time, and I'd rarely call
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NoPantsPoker
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 17
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
fold PF
ez game
I'd 3bet a small% of the time, and I'd rarely call
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Would the reason you would rarly call be because villian could have a wide PRF range on the button? So even if you hit your set he probably wouldn't hit the flop to hard so you wouldn't get a lot out of him most of the time?
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Fold preflop/fold flop as played
With KQo against some opponents I'd c/r or float a lot if I just flatted pre. Depends on their aggression on certain streets.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NoPantsPoker
Would the reason you would rarly call be because villian could have a wide PRF range on the button? So even if you hit your set he probably wouldn't hit the flop to hard so you wouldn't get a lot out of him most of the time?
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that's certainly one of the reasons
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Lol ok end of thread I guess with Kmind and Bigspenda nailing it, thanks guys.
I've been trying to open up a little from the blinds lately which made me blind to folding these pp's, but I'm seeing it again  .
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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set hunting is no-bueno at 6max?
It's easy to play a set oop. bloat the pot. What am I missing?
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
set hunting is no-bueno at 6max?
It's easy to play a set oop. bloat the pot. What am I missing?
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that it's hard to bloat the pot when OOP
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Also harder to set mine when we have less implied odds. But yeah def. OOP too.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Why on earth are you trying to open your range in the blinds?
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Just playing to improve.
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fold? standard 3b bluff imo
also, this gives us a good 5b bluffing hand if it gets to that
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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We said we'd 3bet some but it's only good if we get immediate profit from his fold%
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
We said we'd 3bet some but it's only good if we get immediate profit from his fold%
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no, because sometimes he'll call and we flop a set
getting stacks in in a 3b pot is easier and he can't get away from top pair
sometimes he'll check down a hand like AJ as well on a super dry board
basically we need to only win the pot a small % of the time post-flop even though we lose a little bit by 3bing
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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So you are admitting to at least c/f basically always when we do not hit a set postflop then? I'd easily choose other hands to 3bet bluff with that we can actually bluff postlfop. And I know I am not in the minority on this.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Why on earth are you trying to open your range in the blinds?
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Because I play like 5-10% from there and there's a little value in a little wider range.
And I'm trying to improve my OOP play in general.
Also I'm wondering if the old '2+2' advice of playing very tight from the blinds is a little outdated. I have that from a player I respect a lot, so there's reason for me to take it seriously. Especially when the micro games (at least the ones I'm playing) are getting more weak-tight.
Of course it takes the right skills to take advantage of it. which at the moment I'm lacking. But there's always room to improve.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
So you are admitting to at least c/f basically always when we do not hit a set postflop then? I'd easily choose other hands to 3bet bluff with that we can actually bluff postlfop. And I know I am not in the minority on this.
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it depends
some people call 3bs and c/f the flop when they miss, and those are the people I will 3b the shit out of and cbet once and give up
good players will continue past the flop with most of their hands in a 3b pot so I'll be planning on barrelling them off a marginal hand
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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If you must open up, I wouldnt do it with hit or miss hands like low PPs. If you're looking to learn to make tough decisions OOP then I'd call with stuff like AT/AJ/JT/etc, where you're going to make mediocre TP hands a lot and get faced with decisions.
Personally though, I've yet to hear anyone get the advice 'you're too tight OOP'. Seems like a strange thing to work on at 25nl.
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Just playing to improve.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Alright, same scenario, except we're in the BB and the SB folds (so BTN still made it $1), do we call or fold 33?
If he makes it .75 with no poster and we're in the BB with 33 do we call now?
IOPQ 3betting with a higher frequency seems fine as long as you've identified jamming over a small 4bet w/ history. However, if the BTN 4bet jams you're folding right?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Alright, same scenario, except we're in the BB and the SB folds (so BTN still made it $1), do we call or fold 33?
If he makes it .75 with no poster and we're in the BB with 33 do we call now?
IOPQ 3betting with a higher frequency seems fine as long as you've identified jamming over a small 4bet w/ history. However, if the BTN 4bet jams you're folding right?
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yeah of course I'm folding, but I have to remind myself to 3b people who 4b jam with a stronger range
maybe a few bluffs, but mostly TT+, AQ+ and then call because light 4b jams are small pps and Ax so AQ and TT should show a profit (possibly 99 if he's really going crazy)
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Monty3038
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 788
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
fold PF
ez game
I'd 3bet a small% of the time, and I'd rarely call
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To ask the probably obvious question, is there a percentage of steals from Button player that you'd like to see to base your 3bet percentage on?
For example, if you have a ATS from Button of 50%, does that lead you to increase your 3bet % on this one, or is that not enough...
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monty3038
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
fold PF
ez game
I'd 3bet a small% of the time, and I'd rarely call
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To ask the probably obvious question, is there a percentage of steals from Button player that you'd like to see to base your 3bet percentage on?
For example, if you have a ATS from Button of 50%, does that lead you to increase your 3bet % on this one, or is that not enough... |
that would depend entirely on how he reacts to 3bets. if he folds often to 3bets and cbets in 3b pots, then probably. but if he calls alot and floats and whatnot, then not with 33.
edited for clarity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
that would depend entirely on how he reacts to 3bets. if he folds often to 3bets and cbets in 3b pots, then probably. but if he calls alot and floats and whatnot, then not with 33.
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if he calls a lot it's a great spot to 3b TT and AQ for value
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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for sure, but im only considering the amount we might 3b 33.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
for sure, but im only considering the amount we might 3b 33.
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well in that spot that's not really a hand we're looking to 3b and we can just fold pre obv
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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IF YOU FOLD PF HOW DO YOU FLOP SETS GET PAID??????????
ZOMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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If this was Full Ring do you guys call this for a set mine?
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
If this was Full Ring do you guys call this for a set mine?
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wtf does that have to do with anything
we just said it depends on how the guy reacts to 3b, what range he's opening on the button, etc.
now you come in and ask that 
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
If this was Full Ring do you guys call this for a set mine?
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wtf does that have to do with anything
we just said it depends on how the guy reacts to 3b, what range he's opening on the button, etc.
now you come in and ask that |
I asked because Its in the BC, and If it was me I would call this bet all day at a FR table. Hit my set and stack the Original raiser because he couldn't let go of his Over pair.
And reading through this I see Fold PF, I am almost shocked, especially at this limit.
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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theoretically a FR player will have a slightly tighter range OTB than someone at 6max, not b/c of the number of tables, but b/c the typical FR nitreg doesn't understand abusing position.
What you seem to be missing is that the wider someone's PF raising range the lower implied odds we have postflop. If someone is opening 25%+ of hands from the button it's going to be very hard to stack the necessary amount of their range when we do flop a set, and the other 7/8th's of the time we get to c/f.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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So you're saying we fold pp's without ~30x set odds against the positionally aware BTN?
I ask because a discussion started in my op thread about opening the BTN for 3x when your normal open-raise is 3.5x. In that scenario, w/ 100bb stacks, the blinds are correct to flat w/ small pp's, which is a good thing, since we get to play against a hand that has to c/f and we can use position to not stack off too much.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
So you're saying we fold pp's without ~30x set odds against the positionally aware BTN?
I ask because a discussion started in my op thread about opening the BTN for 3x when your normal open-raise is 3.5x. In that scenario, w/ 100bb stacks, the blinds are correct to flat w/ small pp's, which is a good thing, since we get to play against a hand that has to c/f and we can use position to not stack off too much.
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look, I raise utter crap on the button
if you're setmining I miss the flop like 80% of the time and you're just picking up a cbet
I mean, I'm raising 56o and flopping dem third pair nuts, do you think you're getting much in the way of implied odds?
in fact when I play for stacks I probably got my straight or flush and you're getting it in bad
sure, once in a blue moon I'll have a strong hand
but it's not like I play for stacks every time with aces post-flop since hand strength is relative...
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
So you're saying we fold pp's without ~30x set odds against the positionally aware BTN?
I ask because a discussion started in my op thread about opening the BTN for 3x when your normal open-raise is 3.5x. In that scenario, w/ 100bb stacks, the blinds are correct to flat w/ small pp's, which is a good thing, since we get to play against a hand that has to c/f and we can use position to not stack off too much.
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look, I raise utter crap on the button
if you're setmining I miss the flop like 80% of the time and you're just picking up a cbet
I mean, I'm raising 56o and flopping dem third pair nuts, do you think you're getting much in the way of implied odds?
in fact when I play for stacks I probably got my straight or flush and you're getting it in bad
sure, once in a blue moon I'll have a strong hand
but it's not like I play for stacks every time with aces post-flop since hand strength is relative... |
So 30x would be a good set odds number against you?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robb
So you're saying we fold pp's without ~30x set odds against the positionally aware BTN?
I ask because a discussion started in my op thread about opening the BTN for 3x when your normal open-raise is 3.5x. In that scenario, w/ 100bb stacks, the blinds are correct to flat w/ small pp's, which is a good thing, since we get to play against a hand that has to c/f and we can use position to not stack off too much.
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look, I raise utter crap on the button
if you're setmining I miss the flop like 80% of the time and you're just picking up a cbet
I mean, I'm raising 56o and flopping dem third pair nuts, do you think you're getting much in the way of implied odds?
in fact when I play for stacks I probably got my straight or flush and you're getting it in bad
sure, once in a blue moon I'll have a strong hand
but it's not like I play for stacks every time with aces post-flop since hand strength is relative... |
So 30x would be a good set odds number against you? |
if you're just going to set mine with pps I'm probably going to be EV+ no matter how deep we are since I'm in position
(you might be EV+ too due to the fact that we're splitting the blind money, though)
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
If you're just going to set mine with pps I'm probably going to be EV+ no matter how deep we are since I'm in position
(you might be EV+ too due to the fact that we're splitting the blind money, though)
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Yeah, that's what I thinking, that against the regs we're hoping they'll call to set mine against us. Even if they're close to neutral on EV, we think we can outplay them postflop by not stacking off very much.
In the reverse situation, like Spenda says, we can avoid the problem ourselves.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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If you're good at winning missed pots OOP with small PP's things change of course.
But pretty much no one at our stakes is imo.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
set hunting is no-bueno at 6max?
It's easy to play a set oop. bloat the pot. What am I missing?
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Look at villains position and PFR. Its hard to bloat the pot when he doesnt have a hand.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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