|
midas06
|
07-18-2006, 09:40 AM
Post subject: Comments: Renton's 169 hand SS-NLHE ring strat: Preflop
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
|
|
Discuss: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-39184.htm
nh sir
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
jackvance
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
|
|
The bit about implied odds is golden, very nicely explained!
One thing I'd like to add though.. if you're facing a loose preflop raiser, the implied odds thing changes a bit. Let's say you call his PFR with 22 every time, looking for a set. If however, more than half the time, he is raising stuff like 79s, then you don't have that much implied odds at all. So if you're letting him push you off your hand on the flop every time you don't hit your set, and when you do set up.. most of the time all you take down is his cbet.. then this is a -EV confrontation for you.
Thoughts?
|
|
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
|
|
flomo
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
|
|
Great Post!!!
love the title
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
|
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
|
|
How the hell did ya find the time while playing 8 $200NL tables and all the other extra curriculars. Great job.
|
|
|
|
biondino
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
How the hell did ya find the time while playing 8 $200NL tables and all the other extra curriculars. Great job.
|
He's a bot.
|
|
|
|
bode
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
|
|
Great article. This is much appreciated for someone making the switch from SnG's to ring.
The bit about implied odds is the clearest explanation i have found.
nh
|
Quote:
|
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
|
|
|
Staresy
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Following the Herd to 6-Max Land
Posts: 1,240
|
|
Top stuff Renton!
Sticky worthy even
|
|
|
|
bigred
|
|
PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jackvance
The bit about implied odds is golden, very nicely explained!
One thing I'd like to add though.. if you're facing a loose preflop raiser, the implied odds thing changes a bit. Let's say you call his PFR with 22 every time, looking for a set. If however, more than half the time, he is raising stuff like 79s, then you don't have that much implied odds at all. So if you're letting him push you off your hand on the flop every time you don't hit your set, and when you do set up.. most of the time all you take down is his cbet.. then this is a -EV confrontation for you.
Thoughts?
|
You know, that's something so obvious but I've never even thought of it. I'm usually thinking "56/25 6x raise, my set is going to own this guy!" and it usually doesn't.
Great post, Renton. I've previously stated that I dislike the FTR poker forums and mainly live in the Commune because the poker threads are usually the same ol "Where did my AA go wrong?", "OMG STUPID FISH", etc. Maybe I'll venture out a little more with good post like this.
|
|
LOL OPERATIONS
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bigred
You know, that's something so obvious but I've never even thought of it. I'm usually thinking "56/25 6x raise, my set is going to own this guy!" and it usually doesn't.
Great post, Renton. I've previously stated that I dislike the FTR poker forums and mainly live in the Commune because the poker threads are usually the same ol "Where did my AA go wrong?", "OMG STUPID FISH", etc. Maybe I'll venture out a little more with good post like this.
|
What the hell you have a reputation to uphold
|
|
|
|
Benoso
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 157
|
|
I must say this is a great post, very informative and nicely written. Renton, you're one whose posts I always look out for so it's nice to get an insight into your playing style. 
|
|
|
|
bigred
|
|
PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
|
|
I'll still be a jackass, don't worry.
|
|
LOL OPERATIONS
|
|
DaNutsInYoEye
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
|
|
Wow! That's all I can say after reading Renton's post and implementing his strategies into my game. I have learned the importance of a unstructured game. I have learned the importance of focusing on the PROCESS and not the RESULT. I have discipline.
I highly recommend Renton's 169 hand strategy to anyone struggling with their game, in need of fixing leaks, or even if you haven't played a hand of poker in your life.
Renton is A-ok in my book.
|
|
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
|
|
bode
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Renton is A-ok in my book.
|
ROFL
|
Quote:
|
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
|
|
|
ThelVlaster
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 222
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Wow! That's all I can say after reading Renton's post and implementing his strategies into my game. I have learned the importance of a unstructured game. I have learned the importance of focusing on the PROCESS and not the RESULT. I have discipline.
I highly recommend Renton's 169 hand strategy to anyone struggling with their game, in need of fixing leaks, or even if you haven't played a hand of poker in your life.
Renton is A-ok in my book.
|
HEY!  I wrote something like that!... Just... not as homosexual
In all seriousness, great post Renton. I can tell you put a lot of time and thought into it - much appreciated.
|
|
|
|
pgil
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
|
|
I liked the post, it was really well thought out and articulated. the problem is, there are many preflop strategy guides around. they are everywhere, but preflop is such a small portion of a cash game (as opposed to SNG). some postflop strategy, though harder to write coherently, would probably be much more useful.
although I wanted to add that you should clarify how many limpers it takes for you to classify them as limpers. I found that if i completely ignored the fact that there was just one limper in the pot when it got to me, it really allowed me to play more hands more aggressively, which led to more money. whereas with 3 or more i would only raise value, 2 being a grey area dependent upon the type of players that have limped.
|
|
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
|
|
aokrongly
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 863
|
|
...
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
RENTON PAY BACK UR DEBT TO MANNERBOY NOW
|
|
|
|
Lukie
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
|
|
alright, in all seriousness, I just skimmed through your post. Looks good. Havn't read it in detail though, but I definately plan on doing that when I have some more time.
|
|
|
|
Jay67s
|
|
07-18-2006, 04:43 PM
Post subject: Re: Renton's 169 hand SS-NLHE ring strategy: preflop.
|
#19 (permalink)
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 241
|
|
Very nice in total.
I do have a question
MP (2-5th to act preflop)- Raise 99+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs like UTG but add a few more hands. As the chance that you will have position after the flop increases (as you get closer to the button), it becomes more profitable to add in KQo and AJo, and in 5th position I would probably even raise KJs and ATs. Limp all the other pairs. If there is a raise in front from a standard player (for our purposes from now on a “standard player” raises 10% of his hands and has a vpip of 20%), just call with AQs, 99, TT, and JJ, and muck AJ, AQ, and KQ and all other pairs. When you are second or third to act with AA, KK, QQ, or AK you should almost always reraise to isolate. The last thing you want is to call his raise and then have three callers behind you. A five way pot with AA sucks, and it is the reason most people get stacked with AA too much.
[/quote]
Why do you fold all pairs here. If the standard player is full stacked, you are getting your 15x. Plus you may get callers behind you if you call with your small pair out of MP. When you hit your set with 3 to 4 people seeing the flop, isnt that what we want.
|
|
|
|
bigred
|
|
PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
|
|
I  Lukie
|
|
LOL OPERATIONS
|
|
DaNutsInYoEye
|
|
07-18-2006, 05:16 PM
Post subject: Re: Renton's 169 hand SS-NLHE ring strategy: preflop.
|
#21 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay67s
Very nice in total.
I do have a question
Quote:
|
MP (2-5th to act preflop)- Raise 99+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs like UTG but add a few more hands. As the chance that you will have position after the flop increases (as you get closer to the button), it becomes more profitable to add in KQo and AJo, and in 5th position I would probably even raise KJs and ATs. Limp all the other pairs. If there is a raise in front from a standard player (for our purposes from now on a “standard player” raises 10% of his hands and has a vpip of 20%), just call with AQs, 99, TT, and JJ, and muck AJ, AQ, and KQ and all other pairs. When you are second or third to act with AA, KK, QQ, or AK you should almost always reraise to isolate. The last thing you want is to call his raise and then have three callers behind you. A five way pot with AA sucks, and it is the reason most people get stacked with AA too much.
|
Why do you fold all pairs here. If the standard player is full stacked, you are getting your 15x. Plus you may get callers behind you if you call with your small pair out of MP. When you hit your set with 3 to 4 people seeing the flop, isnt that what we want. |
Calling for set value is based upon implied odds. Even in EP, a 20/10 player is raising with a lot more hands than KK or AA, so even if you hit your set, you're not going to get paid off most of the time. In addition, there is no guarantee that there will be additional callers behind you. In these positions there are also a lot of people to act behind you that can squeeze you with a re-raise.
In LP, even if you don't hit your set, you can still represent a stronger hand than you actually have when checked to or you can choose to take a free card. This play is taken away from you if there are players yet to act behind you. If you have 77 on a flop of 2d, 4s, Qh you could very well have the best hand, but if there are people yet to act you're typically going to check to them either giving them the opportunity to bluff you off or take a free card that can beat you.
An argument can be made for calling, and I think it's appropriate to do so sometimes if for no other reason than to mix up your play. Any strategy advice is going to be general though, and as such, I think Renton's advice is pretty good.
|
|
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
|
|
paulwright
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
|
|
Fantastic post Renton!
Could you or someone else please clarify 2 questions I have...
1. Assuming SS (as mentioned in your title) is short stacked - what are you buying in for and what is your reasoning. I have read various discussions on short stacks v full buy-ins and weight of argument often goes to buying in full.
2. Any chance you could elaborate on your suited connectors play. I have yet to find a winning way to play them...
Cheers, PW
|
|
|
|
yorib
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
|
|
Renton: Excellent post. Would your 6-max strategy just start at LP?
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
|
|
SS= small stakes.
|
|
|
|
paulwright
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
|
|
Ding, the light goes on... thx Trainer - I was sure Renton was a full buy guy...
|
|
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
|
|
He's a rebuy to the full buy-in if you lose a portion of your stack guy
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
07-18-2006, 06:00 PM
Post subject: Re: Renton's 169 hand SS-NLHE ring strategy: preflop.
|
#27 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
When deciding whether to call a raise with a small pair from a player very likely to have you dominated with a better pair, the effective stack left over when you call must be at LEAST 15 times the amount of the raise to be called.
|
Thanks for the great post Renton. Wondering about this 15x number though... why does NLHE T&P (p. 35) make it sound like the effective stack size only needs to be 8x the size of the raise to give you the right implied odds for your set?
|
|
|
|
paulwright
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 130
|
|
Quote:
Renton wrote:
When deciding whether to call a raise with a small pair from a player very likely to have you dominated with a better pair, the effective stack left over when you call must be at LEAST 15 times the amount of the raise to be called.
Thanks for the great post Renton. Wondering about this 15x number though... why does NLHE T&P (p. 35) make it sound like the effective stack size only needs to be 8x the size of the raise to give you the right implied odds for your set?
|
Renton will hopefully clarify - but here's my 2 cent analysis. Odds of hitting set are 1 in 8 - so if their stack is only 8x the bet then if you hit you need to ensure you always get their entire stack to make the odds profitable. However, if their stack is at least 15x then you factor in those occasions when you only get a portion of their stack (ie they sniff your set / their AK misses), or the rare times you get smashed with a higher set etc, straighted, flushed etc
|
|
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
|
|
great choice to stickify.
|
|
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by paulwright
Renton will hopefully clarify - but here's my 2 cent analysis. Odds of hitting set are 1 in 8 - so if their stack is only 8x the bet then if you hit you need to ensure you always get their entire stack to make the odds profitable. However, if their stack is at least 15x then you factor in those occasions when you only get a portion of their stack (ie they sniff your set / their AK misses), or the rare times you get smashed with a higher set etc, straighted, flushed etc
|
Thanks Paul. I agree you should factor in the possibility of not stacking your opponent, I'm just curious how he did that to come up with the 15x number. [nitpicking] Your chance of hitting your set without your opp hitting his are ~1 in 9, so you need 8:1 implied odds to make it +EV. [/nitpicking] Without using any math whatsoever, it seems like you should start with ~10x as a guideline and adjust it upward for players who know are able to get away from good hands postflop. I could be missing something though.
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by paulwright
Renton will hopefully clarify - but here's my 2 cent analysis. Odds of hitting set are 1 in 8 - so if their stack is only 8x the bet then if you hit you need to ensure you always get their entire stack to make the odds profitable. However, if their stack is at least 15x then you factor in those occasions when you only get a portion of their stack (ie they sniff your set / their AK misses), or the rare times you get smashed with a higher set etc, straighted, flushed etc
|
Thanks Paul. I agree you should factor in the possibility of not stacking your opponent, I'm just curious how he did that to come up with the 15x number. [nitpicking] Your chance of hitting your set without your opp hitting his are ~1 in 9, so you need 8:1 implied odds to make it +EV. [/nitpicking] Without using any math whatsoever, it seems like you should start with ~10x as a guideline and adjust it upward for players who know are able to get away from good hands postflop. I could be missing something though. |
There was a thread that discussed this in depth recently...the basic rule is called "the 10x rule" on here, but Lukie and others feel it should be 15x+ for the reasons already outlined here.
|
|
|
|
swiggidy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
|
|
Here's some pp discussion links:
Original 10x Rule Sticky
Discussion about 10x rule (15x is introduced)
|
|
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
|
|
shysti
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Internetz
Posts: 838
|
|
I like that we are starting to get people to write more articles + EV, something FTR desperately needs
|
|
|
|
pgil
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
|
|
speaking of sets, what are everyone's typical set lines, both in and out of position.
assuming moderately aggressice opp i use:
oop: lead flop (since i usually raise PP's pf), if called and no obvious draws on board i will 1/2 the time bet again, 1/2 the time check with the intention of c-r'ing (especially fun against known floaters or if overcard falls on turn), then value bet river.
in position: if ive been active lately i will bet(if checked to)/raise the flop, and continue throughout the hand to play it very fast. if i havent been as active recently i will sometimes call the flop and bet/raise the turn and river.
with a draw on board i will be more likely to flat call a larger flop bet but raise a smaller bet. i do this to make it look as though i may be chasing, which provides great cover for my set and allows me to make a large bet on the turn or river when the draw doesnt complete that will get called by many hands.
thoughts
|
|
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
|
|
zook
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
There was a thread that discussed this in depth recently...the basic rule is called "the 10x rule" on here, but Lukie and others feel it should be 15x+ for the reasons already outlined here.
|
Thanks.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by pgil
speaking of sets, what are everyone's typical set lines, both in and out of position.
|
Here are a few thoughts, although for some reason the thread got Boytanoed at the end:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-38959.htm
|
|
|
|
chardrian
|
|
I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by shysti
I like that we are starting to get people to write more articles + EV, something FTR desperately needs
|
Writing articles is +EV for everyone involved. They are +EV for the readers because you can gain valuable insight. They are +EV for the writers because although they can take a long time to write, the simple process of writing an article helps the writer to better understand the ideas behind poker and helps to gain a better insight into why we do so many of the things that after tons of hands have just become second nature.
|
|
|
|
johnnyBuz
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philly, Pa
Posts: 462
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
Raise 99+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs like UTG but add a few more hands. As the chance that you will have position after the flop increases (as you get closer to the button), it becomes more profitable to add in KQo and AJo, and in 5th position I would probably even raise KJs and ATs. Limp all the other pairs. If there is a raise in front from a standard player (for our purposes from now on a “standard player” raises 10% of his hands and has a vpip of 20%), just call with AQs, 99, TT, and JJ, and muck AJ, AQ, and KQ and all other pairs.
|
i have a bit of an issue with this. i don't play a ton of full ring, but i think dumping AQo to a raise but playing it if it is suited is giving up way too much value and placing too high of an emphasis on the flush. maybe it's different at higher limits, but i think AQo is still a profitable hand at the 25NL and 50NL areas.
|
|
Liter of cola.
|
|
pgil
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zook
|
cant believe i missed that thread. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how or what getting 'boytanoed' could mean, but then i read the thread, and there it was, boytanoed.
|
|
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
|
|
LimpinAintEZ
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
|
|
....
|
|
|
|
LimpinAintEZ
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
i have a bit of an issue with this. i don't play a ton of full ring, but i think dumping AQo to a raise but playing it if it is suited is giving up way too much value and placing too high of an emphasis on the flush. maybe it's different at higher limits, but i think AQo is still a profitable hand at the 25NL and 50NL areas.
|
i think what he is trying to say in a short and sweet way is you are most likely going to get yourself in trouble with the AQo against a raiser - Basically you will either win a small pot or lose a big one if you get stubborn with hitting an A (or Q) - Also, Renton PROBABLY avoids it because it gets him into marginal situations - Even when I'm only 4 tabling I don't like to get myself in tricky situations, and Renton 8 tables (or is it more now?)
I have found that AQo is a big trouble hand and unless i'm against a guy who raises any 2, I don't want to play it against a raiser - just as a general rule I think it's solid - There are going to be plenty of situations where you will play it - SB and 4 people call the UTG min-raise, something like that - but it can get you in trouble....
|
|
this space intentionally left blank
|
|
a500lbgorilla
|
|
JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
|
|
Comment number 1, I think we have way to low standards for stickying stuff
NOT a knock to Renton's post. I didnt even read it and Renton is so hot right now. But, it's a fresh thread... did it really need a sticky?
Like lets discuss, revise, then sticky?
of course, this could all make me look real stupid. It may be the perfect strat post.
but its soooo long
|
Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jackvance
The bit about implied odds is golden, very nicely explained!
One thing I'd like to add though.. if you're facing a loose preflop raiser, the implied odds thing changes a bit. Let's say you call his PFR with 22 every time, looking for a set. If however, more than half the time, he is raising stuff like 79s, then you don't have that much implied odds at all. So if you're letting him push you off your hand on the flop every time you don't hit your set, and when you do set up.. most of the time all you take down is his cbet.. then this is a -EV confrontation for you.
Thoughts?
|
Yes but the EV is still there for calling with small pairs because you can float him and or call him down sometimes. And by the way, when you DO hit your set and he DID hit something, he'll be a fair bit more likely to stack off than his tight counter part. I stacked someone like this yesterday with a set vs. his QT top pair.
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
i have a bit of an issue with this. i don't play a ton of full ring, but i think dumping AQo to a raise but playing it if it is suited is giving up way too much value and placing too high of an emphasis on the flush. maybe it's different at higher limits, but i think AQo is still a profitable hand at the 25NL and 50NL areas.
|
Quote:
i think what he is trying to say in a short and sweet way is you are most likely going to get yourself in trouble with the AQo against a raiser - Basically you will either win a small pot or lose a big one if you get stubborn with hitting an A (or Q) - Also, Renton PROBABLY avoids it because it gets him into marginal situations - Even when I'm only 4 tabling I don't like to get myself in tricky situations, and Renton 8 tables (or is it more now?)
I have found that AQo is a big trouble hand and unless i'm against a guy who raises any 2, I don't want to play it against a raiser - just as a general rule I think it's solid - There are going to be plenty of situations where you will play it - SB and 4 people call the UTG min-raise, something like that - but it can get you in trouble....
|
If I play it against a raiser I'm hoping to hit a Q or 2 pair, but a lone ace on the flop gives us an unfortunate dilemma. Unless you're really good at folding TPGK, dumping it preflop will save you a lot of chips. This is a beginner forum strat post remember...
Personally, I play it, but I like to see flops with overs in my hand.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
07-18-2006, 08:43 PM
Post subject: Re: Renton's 169 hand SS-NLHE ring strategy: preflop.
|
#44 (permalink)
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay67s
Very nice in total.
I do have a question
Quote:
|
MP (2-5th to act preflop)- Raise 99+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs like UTG but add a few more hands. As the chance that you will have position after the flop increases (as you get closer to the button), it becomes more profitable to add in KQo and AJo, and in 5th position I would probably even raise KJs and ATs. Limp all the other pairs. If there is a raise in front from a standard player (for our purposes from now on a “standard player” raises 10% of his hands and has a vpip of 20%), just call with AQs, 99, TT, and JJ, and muck AJ, AQ, and KQ and all other pairs. When you are second or third to act with AA, KK, QQ, or AK you should almost always reraise to isolate. The last thing you want is to call his raise and then have three callers behind you. A five way pot with AA sucks, and it is the reason most people get stacked with AA too much.
|
Why do you fold all pairs here. If the standard player is full stacked, you are getting your 15x. Plus you may get callers behind you if you call with your small pair out of MP. When you hit your set with 3 to 4 people seeing the flop, isnt that what we want. |
Calling for set value is based upon implied odds. Even in EP, a 20/10 player is raising with a lot more hands than KK or AA, so even if you hit your set, you're not going to get paid off most of the time. In addition, there is no guarantee that there will be additional callers behind you. In these positions there are also a lot of people to act behind you that can squeeze you with a re-raise.
In LP, even if you don't hit your set, you can still represent a stronger hand than you actually have when checked to or you can choose to take a free card. This play is taken away from you if there are players yet to act behind you. If you have 77 on a flop of 2d, 4s, Qh you could very well have the best hand, but if there are people yet to act you're typically going to check to them either giving them the opportunity to bluff you off or take a free card that can beat you.
An argument can be made for calling, and I think it's appropriate to do so sometimes if for no other reason than to mix up your play. Any strategy advice is going to be general though, and as such, I think Renton's advice is pretty good. |
Rofl I typoed that. I always call with pairs there. It should say "muck AJ, AQ, and KQ and call with all other pairs. I am not a mod so I can't change the post (anyone?).
|
|
|
|
chardrian
|
|
I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Comment number 1, I think we have way to low standards for stickying stuff
NOT a knock to Renton's post. I didnt even read it and Renton is so hot right now. But, it's a fresh thread... did it really need a sticky?
Like lets discuss, revise, then sticky?
of course, this could all make me look real stupid. It may be the perfect strat post.
but its soooo long |
I stickified it in hopes of getting others to write articles as well. I guess I should have pointed out beforehand that I want to start stickifying articles/really good posts more from now on (sorta like a "post o' the week"), but I also plan on unstickifying them when they no longer are generating any discussion.
I did read Renton's article and it is g00t. So I went through the headache of splitting it, because I know I want to add it to the Beginner's digest once the comments dry up.
I won't do that with everything.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by paulwright
Renton will hopefully clarify - but here's my 2 cent analysis. Odds of hitting set are 1 in 8 - so if their stack is only 8x the bet then if you hit you need to ensure you always get their entire stack to make the odds profitable. However, if their stack is at least 15x then you factor in those occasions when you only get a portion of their stack (ie they sniff your set / their AK misses), or the rare times you get smashed with a higher set etc, straighted, flushed etc
|
Thanks Paul. I agree you should factor in the possibility of not stacking your opponent, I'm just curious how he did that to come up with the 15x number. [nitpicking] Your chance of hitting your set without your opp hitting his are ~1 in 9, so you need 8:1 implied odds to make it +EV. [/nitpicking] Without using any math whatsoever, it seems like you should start with ~10x as a guideline and adjust it upward for players who know are able to get away from good hands postflop. I could be missing something though. |
You want to make not just a little money, but a lot of money with your sets. 15x or better ensures this. Its IS however a random number I pulled outta the hat.
If you call 10 dollar raises from 100-120 dollar stacks with 22 consistently, you probably will make money in the long run, but it is an extremely high variance strategy that I would not recommend to a novice.
|
|
|
|
johnnyBuz
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philly, Pa
Posts: 462
|
|
maybe i'm an idiot, but i've been seeing "floating" everywhere and still have no idea what the hell it is. is it like a calling-station? staying in the pot hoping to get lucky and hit 2 pair or something? someone please just fill me in on what floating is.
|
|
Liter of cola.
|
|
chardrian
|
|
07-18-2006, 08:48 PM
Post subject: Re: Renton's 169 hand SS-NLHE ring strategy: preflop.
|
#48 (permalink)
|
|
I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay67s
Very nice in total.
I do have a question
Quote:
|
MP (2-5th to act preflop)- Raise 99+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs like UTG but add a few more hands. As the chance that you will have position after the flop increases (as you get closer to the button), it becomes more profitable to add in KQo and AJo, and in 5th position I would probably even raise KJs and ATs. Limp all the other pairs. If there is a raise in front from a standard player (for our purposes from now on a “standard player” raises 10% of his hands and has a vpip of 20%), just call with AQs, 99, TT, and JJ, and muck AJ, AQ, and KQ and all other pairs. When you are second or third to act with AA, KK, QQ, or AK you should almost always reraise to isolate. The last thing you want is to call his raise and then have three callers behind you. A five way pot with AA sucks, and it is the reason most people get stacked with AA too much.
|
Why do you fold all pairs here. If the standard player is full stacked, you are getting your 15x. Plus you may get callers behind you if you call with your small pair out of MP. When you hit your set with 3 to 4 people seeing the flop, isnt that what we want. |
Calling for set value is based upon implied odds. Even in EP, a 20/10 player is raising with a lot more hands than KK or AA, so even if you hit your set, you're not going to get paid off most of the time. In addition, there is no guarantee that there will be additional callers behind you. In these positions there are also a lot of people to act behind you that can squeeze you with a re-raise.
In LP, even if you don't hit your set, you can still represent a stronger hand than you actually have when checked to or you can choose to take a free card. This play is taken away from you if there are players yet to act behind you. If you have 77 on a flop of 2d, 4s, Qh you could very well have the best hand, but if there are people yet to act you're typically going to check to them either giving them the opportunity to bluff you off or take a free card that can beat you.
An argument can be made for calling, and I think it's appropriate to do so sometimes if for no other reason than to mix up your play. Any strategy advice is going to be general though, and as such, I think Renton's advice is pretty good. |
Rofl I typoed that. I always call with pairs there. It should say "muck AJ, AQ, and KQ and call with all other pairs. I am not a mod so I can't change the post (anyone?). |
Done
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
Raise 99+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs like UTG but add a few more hands. As the chance that you will have position after the flop increases (as you get closer to the button), it becomes more profitable to add in KQo and AJo, and in 5th position I would probably even raise KJs and ATs. Limp all the other pairs. If there is a raise in front from a standard player (for our purposes from now on a “standard player” raises 10% of his hands and has a vpip of 20%), just call with AQs, 99, TT, and JJ, and muck AJ, AQ, and KQ and all other pairs.
|
i have a bit of an issue with this. i don't play a ton of full ring, but i think dumping AQo to a raise but playing it if it is suited is giving up way too much value and placing too high of an emphasis on the flush. maybe it's different at higher limits, but i think AQo is still a profitable hand at the 25NL and 50NL areas. |
Its not that AQs is soooo much better than AQo. Its just a threshold in hand strength. But the times were you call AK's raise and flop an ace and a nut flush draw are golden, and will help your bottom line. I also don't like calling raises in that position with unpaired offsuit cards because of the likely hood of getting called behind and having to play a one pair hand in a multiway pot. AQs as lots more value in that spot than AQo.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
maybe i'm an idiot, but i've been seeing "floating" everywhere and still have no idea what the hell it is. is it like a calling-station? staying in the pot hoping to get lucky and hit 2 pair or something? someone please just fill me in on what floating is. |
Floating is a delayed bluff technique. Its when you call his bet on one street with the intention of taking a stab at the pot when he shows weakness on another street. Its a strong play because it allows you to take your time before you decide to invest chips on a bluff. A good time float is against a tight player when you have a gutshot draw on a two tone flop. You can call the flop and hope to peel off a str8 on the turn, and if the flush completes instead you can represent that.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
