Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password
  >    > 

Comments: Don't Be a Poker Pansy: Intro

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Benoso
Old 07-24-2006, 06:23 PM     Post subject: Comments: Don't Be a Poker Pansy: Intro #1 (permalink)  
Benoso's Avatar
Straight

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 157
Benoso
Send a message via MSN to Benoso
Discuss: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-39570.htm


Great post.

A lot of players are far too passive, which is good news for me of course.

Nah, in all seriousness though, a lot of players need to grow some bigger balls.
Reply With Quote
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
Renton
Old 07-24-2006, 06:37 PM #2 (permalink)  
Renton's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
Renton will become famous soon enough
nh

I love how these players just call my one pair river value bets with the third nuts, instead of raising and me having to pay them off. Oh, and also how every time they bet they basically pin a sign up showing their exact hole cards. I like that.
Reply With Quote
bigred
Old 07-24-2006, 09:25 PM #3 (permalink)  
bigred's Avatar
PROFESSIONAL TROLL

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
bigred is a name known to allbigred is a name known to allbigred is a name known to allbigred is a name known to allbigred is a name known to allbigred is a name known to all
I would like to subscribe to your ebook
LOL OPERATIONS
 
Reply With Quote
midas06
Old 07-24-2006, 09:38 PM #4 (permalink)  
midas06's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
midas06
nice post sir
Reply With Quote
LimpinAintEZ
Old 07-24-2006, 10:03 PM #5 (permalink)  
LimpinAintEZ's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
LimpinAintEZ
my personal favorite is when i have a monster hand and the guy who paid me off with his whole stack shows me his middle pair as if he HAD to call with that hand - whats funny is they always WANT to show me what they called me with - I don't know why - To let me know for certain that they are idiots? Or to show me that they can't be bluffed? Whatever it is, I don't see how it could help them to let anyone know they will stack off with 2nd pair hands -
this space intentionally left blank
 
Reply With Quote
thenonsequitur
Old 07-24-2006, 10:50 PM #6 (permalink)  
thenonsequitur's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
thenonsequitur
Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
Or to show me that they can't be bluffed?
I think this is the reason.

I think they're thinking to themselves something along the lines of "lucky bastard--90% of the time he's bluffing here and I would have caught it with my pair, I got unlucky enough to call the 10% they had something". And of course they think that same thing the nine out of ten times that they lose their stack looking up someone's monster with middle pair. And they use the one time in ten when they pick off a bluff with middle pair to reinforce this fallacy.

So when they "get unlucky" and call your push when you happen to have a monster, they want to prove that they made a good move picking off your probable bluff, and that it was just luck that you had a hand this time.
Reply With Quote
Thee One
Old 07-24-2006, 11:38 PM #7 (permalink)  
Straight

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 185
Thee One
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
I think this is the reason.

I think they're thinking to themselves something along the lines of "lucky bastard--90% of the time he's bluffing here and I would have caught it with my pair, I got unlucky enough to call the 10% they had something". And of course they think that same thing the nine out of ten times that they lose their stack looking up someone's monster with middle pair. And they use the one time in ten when they pick off a bluff with middle pair to reinforce this fallacy.

So when they "get unlucky" and call your push when you happen to have a monster, they want to prove that they made a good move picking off your probable bluff, and that it was just luck that you had a hand this time.
That's so convoluted I'm surprised they can actually reason it out.
Reply With Quote
flomo
Old 07-25-2006, 12:36 AM #8 (permalink)  
flomo's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
flomo will become famous soon enough
this the beginning of something special

thank you DNUTS
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred View Post
Protect dog
 
Reply With Quote
johnnyBuz
Old 07-25-2006, 01:30 AM #9 (permalink)  
johnnyBuz's Avatar
Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Philly, Pa
Posts: 462
johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoso
Great post.

A lot of players are far too passive, which is good news for me of course.

Nah, in all seriousness though, a lot of players need to grow some bigger balls.
what should you when you play the complete opposite way, overaggression? i do a lot of the things this post says aggressive players do well, but i give it back at the wrong times being "too aggressive" and not giving respect to raises, reraises, etc. because i think they are maybe making a stand or just bluffing.

i think if i fix that, that's the difference between my "break even" poker and me actually winning money.
Liter of cola.
 
Reply With Quote
Miffed22001
Old 07-25-2006, 06:42 PM #10 (permalink)  
Miffed22001's Avatar
Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
Miffed22001 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
I think this is the reason.

I think they're thinking to themselves something along the lines of "lucky bastard--90% of the time he's bluffing here and I would have caught it with my pair, I got unlucky enough to call the 10% they had something". And of course they think that same thing the nine out of ten times that they lose their stack looking up someone's monster with middle pair. And they use the one time in ten when they pick off a bluff with middle pair to reinforce this fallacy.

So when they "get unlucky" and call your push when you happen to have a monster, they want to prove that they made a good move picking off your probable bluff, and that it was just luck that you had a hand this time.
purely and simply a lack of second level thinking. They cant see beyond the cards you should have and what the board shows; no interpretation skills.
Reply With Quote
Yakuman
Old 07-26-2006, 07:58 AM #11 (permalink)  

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 67
Yakuman
I'm obviously not a fan of passive play, but you're telling people to start bluffing. On loose tables, what's the point?
I can see a c-bet or a semibluff here and there, but not much more.

Why bluff people who will call anything down to the river? You stand to win small pots and get smacked in the head with reverse implied odds.
Reply With Quote
Jiggus
Old 07-26-2006, 08:09 AM #12 (permalink)  
Guest

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
I'm obviously not a fan of passive play, but you're telling people to start bluffing. On loose tables, what's the point?
I can see a c-bet or a semibluff here and there, but not much more.

Why bluff people who will call anything down to the river? You stand to win small pots and get smacked in the head with reverse implied odds.
Absofreakinglutely.
Reply With Quote
midas06
Old 07-26-2006, 09:04 AM #13 (permalink)  
midas06's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
midas06
So you're saying you:

a) never continuation bet,

and

b) never give someone poor outs to draw?

Those are the two biggest money earners in no limit hold'em.
Reply With Quote
Vrax
Old 07-26-2006, 09:35 AM #14 (permalink)  
Vrax's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
Vrax
Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
my personal favorite is when i have a monster hand and the guy who paid me off with his whole stack shows me his middle pair as if he HAD to call with that hand - whats funny is they always WANT to show me what they called me with - I don't know why - To let me know for certain that they are idiots? Or to show me that they can't be bluffed? Whatever it is, I don't see how it could help them to let anyone know they will stack off with 2nd pair hands -
Haha, yeah that's funny, I see it everytime, guys call off entire stack on river and show down bottom pair like they wanted to say "WTF fullhouse??? I was SURE that you had missed AK!"
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
Reply With Quote
biondino
Old 07-26-2006, 12:36 PM #15 (permalink)  
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
biondino
Send a message via AIM to biondino Send a message via MSN to biondino
DNuts - can I ask a favour? While I agree a certain other poster's strategy posts are too basic, too rigid and as aresult could hamstring them beyond the first few days, I think something important is missing here - you're assuming too much about the knowledge and "feel" of the average beginner.

Telling a newbie poker player to be aggressive ABSOLUTELY requires a clear definition of "good" aggression vs "bad" aggression - when to do it, how far to go, how to spot weakness (I have lost countless $$$ being aggro for the sake of it when I should have been considering position/oppo bets/oppo stats etc etc before doing so).

Aggression used at the wrong time and place - and a newcomer will have, initially, very little instinctive idea of when to do so correctly - is a FAR bigger spew than over-passivity during the first stages of learning. There's a fine but vital line between aggression and recklnessness. Would you mind adding another post that explores this?
Reply With Quote
DaNutsInYoEye
Old 07-26-2006, 04:49 PM #16 (permalink)  
DaNutsInYoEye's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
DaNutsInYoEye
Send a message via AIM to DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
DNuts - can I ask a favour? While I agree a certain other poster's strategy posts are too basic, too rigid and as aresult could hamstring them beyond the first few days, I think something important is missing here - you're assuming too much about the knowledge and "feel" of the average beginner.

Telling a newbie poker player to be aggressive ABSOLUTELY requires a clear definition of "good" aggression vs "bad" aggression - when to do it, how far to go, how to spot weakness (I have lost countless $$$ being aggro for the sake of it when I should have been considering position/oppo bets/oppo stats etc etc before doing so).

Aggression used at the wrong time and place - and a newcomer will have, initially, very little instinctive idea of when to do so correctly - is a FAR bigger spew than over-passivity during the first stages of learning. There's a fine but vital line between aggression and recklnessness. Would you mind adding another post that explores this?
Absolutely. I actually started another post after reading johnnybuz's reply, but haven't finished it yet. The follow-up post continues to talk about aggression, specifically being selectively aggressive and the dangers of being overly aggressive.

I also added a little to the intro post that serves somewhat of a disclaimer.
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
 
Reply With Quote
XTR1000
Old 07-27-2006, 01:05 PM #17 (permalink)  
XTR1000's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
XTR1000 is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to XTR1000
nice post.


as a newbie i was playing tight and something between aggressive and passive. bet your hands, folds your rags and take only 100% opportunities to steal.

after reading HOH 1 & 2 i got more aggressive with cbetting and sandwich moves, thinking of first-in-vigorish and things like that. trying out all those moves cost me a significant part of my BR. I learned it the expensive way, that playing aggressive might make u more money, but it takes far more skills. you have to know your position (never thoght of it much until reading books) and develop a good timing. against super-loose players with nearly no preflop strategy, those kind of french player you meet 80% of your time at EverestPoker, u cant steal anything with a 4BB raise as long any player has any 2 suited cards or broadways.
dont confuse getting aggressive with loosening up.


i´m still a beginner myself but that´s the things i learned the last weeks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred View Post
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
yo
 
Reply With Quote
mrhappy333
Old 08-02-2006, 12:05 AM #18 (permalink)  
mrhappy333's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
mrhappy333 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to mrhappy333
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhappy333
can we see some examples of aggresiveness? I always wonder what hands I should be aggressive with? Is bottom pair good enough to re reaise someone? I never know, and I hate when I try to be aggressive and someone has a hand, and takes alot of my chips.
3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
 
Reply With Quote
KingLizard
Old 08-11-2006, 07:15 PM #19 (permalink)  
Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 296
KingLizard
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoso
Great post.

A lot of players are far too passive, which is good news for me of course.

Nah, in all seriousness though, a lot of players need to grow some bigger balls.
what should you when you play the complete opposite way, overaggression? i do a lot of the things this post says aggressive players do well, but i give it back at the wrong times being "too aggressive" and not giving respect to raises, reraises, etc. because i think they are maybe making a stand or just bluffing.

i think if i fix that, that's the difference between my "break even" poker and me actually winning money.
This post really hit home. As a beginner, I worked on getting more aggressive but like JohnnyB says, I would tend (and still do to a smaller extent) to get carried away. Check raise me will you .... well take this over the top push ... oops ... he REALLY did have pocket Qs.

In any case, there is a learning curve to this aggression stuff. Thanks for the original post DaNuts. Keep it coming and perhaps talk a bit about "how much" aggression and how a player can get to the "promised" land in a steady measured way.
Reply With Quote
mrhappy333
Old 06-09-2007, 04:43 PM #20 (permalink)  
mrhappy333's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
mrhappy333 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to mrhappy333
Bump??
3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
 
Reply With Quote
bpurvis2
Old 12-20-2008, 03:09 AM #21 (permalink)  

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 35
bpurvis2
This post is awsome man you make two really good points in it that force feeding new players information is not the route to go becuase it effects there thought process as they grow as players and move up in limit and I think your right players should not be feed information like it is a get rich quick scheme becuase it is poker is a skilled game a think mans game that if played right over the long haul you can make a great live off of but first off you must think and grow rich . Your second point was awsome to passive is very bad becuase you allow better players to draw or redraw on you becuase you did not make them pay for there mistakes let there mistakes make you money dont let it be the other way around.
Reply With Quote
birdman417
Old 01-17-2009, 06:30 PM     Post subject: thanks for the post #22 (permalink)  
birdman417's Avatar
3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: US
Posts: 82
birdman417
Great post!

I find myself being "pushed off" marginal hands because of my being a passive player...I can usually make it to the money but only just. Im trying to learn when to be aggressive.

I think the odds charts have a certain value, though..to let the beginners (like myself) know when to throw something away that "looks" marginal but due to position, pre-flop raises, etc. is a good hand to hold on to.

My two cents worth,

birdman
Reply With Quote
Sir Pawnalot
Old 01-17-2009, 07:29 PM #23 (permalink)  
Sir Pawnalot's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
Sir Pawnalot
Why is aggression good?

1. Bigger pots
2. Can win without showdown. (stealing equity)
3. Gain more information. Lose less with second best hand.

Aggression for the sake of aggression is no good. Understand the reasons behind your actions and chose your spots.
A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
 
Reply With Quote
dealem52
Old 01-18-2009, 01:32 AM #24 (permalink)  

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5
dealem52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot
Why is aggression good?

1. Bigger pots
2. Can win without showdown. (stealing equity)
3. Gain more information. Lose less with second best hand.

Aggression for the sake of aggression is no good. Understand the reasons behind your actions and chose your spots.
This is right on the mark. Always know the reason you are making a raise. And even more importantly, stick to those reasons. If you raise w/ bottom pair to see if you are ahead and get re-raised, you probably need to let it go unless you have an ironclad read on you opponent. On the other hand, if you have top 2 and value bet and get re-raised you should already know if you are going to call with intention of check raising the turn or re-raising the flop. Sure you won't always be making the right decision, but you will be starting to think about the whole hand and not just the flop
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
KoRnholio Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 PM    Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:39 AM.


FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com
Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.