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Jager
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09-23-2006, 08:26 AM
Post subject: Check Raising..
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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How often do you Check Raise?
With what hands?
How often do you fold to a check raise?
It seems everytime I bet in position I get Check Raised. If I have a hand I get raised. I only rarely c/r my self <1%. Is TPTK enough to call this raise?
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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This really isnt a numbers question. You should c/r when you feel that you are maximizing your outcome. Though c/r typically has more fold equity involved it also helps to build a pot if you are called. For this reason I personally rarely do it on anything but a semi bluff or a player who doesnt respect them with a strong hand.
Attempting to c/r from a blind when you flop a made hand is also rather effective as it's often the only way you can build a pot on the flop from these positions.
PK
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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poker tracker is telling me i c/r 32 times in last 11k hands (3%).
i dont think i c/r that much, i would much rather donk into a pfraiser.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I c/r against aggressive opponents with:
1) TPGK
2) two pair
3) air
I don't do it often, but I think you have to do it a little to keep people from picking off your c-bets.
I will usually call a c/r with TPTK and re-evaluate on the turn, but it's read-dependent. If it's coming from a tight player, I'll usually dump it.
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
I c/r against aggressive opponents with:
1) TPGK
2) two pair
3) air
I don't do it often, but I think you have to do it a little to keep people from picking off your c-bets.
I will usually call a c/r with TPTK and re-evaluate on the turn, but it's read-dependent. If it's coming from a tight player, I'll usually dump it.
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so i take it you c/r the turn more than flop?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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playing earlier today, i c/r'ed 4 or 5 times in the first couple of orbits with 2 sets, and 2 straits. the guy i did it to twice told me that check raising was so 80's.
the next hand he is in the BB and im in the SB, i get delt none other than 720. It folds around to me and i complete. flop comes 772, and he raises like $4 into a 50 cent pot. i c/r him all in and he flips over JQ.
lolz.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TerryToma
so i take it you c/r the turn more than flop?
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Probably a little more. Slightly different situations though... if I'm the pre-flop raiser then still vs. aggro opponents, but also usually with no draws on the board and when I've already shown the c-bet/turn check/fold line. Against pre-flop aggressors, I'm c/r'ing the turn with made hands mostly.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I am mainly concerned about the flop play. Early limper or Blinds who call your late Pos raise then auto check raise your flop bet. How often are these bluffs? If I raise AK then flop Kxx then get check raised, I start thinking set or someone trying to make a play with 2nd pair or a bluff. Looking for answers to this situation.
Thanks.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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There are a lot of things that go into weather or not I check raise. But one of my favs is a real strong draw. Example I have 6S7S flop comes down, 4S-7D-8S. I am definetly check raising here.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I think I need to start mixing in a lot of random check-raises against the guys who raise too much on the button and continuation bet too often on the flop.
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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One thing I hate is when I raise PF in late position, one caller, flop comes all rags, I c-bet 2/3 pot and get min-checkraised. It feels stupid laying down a hand when I'm getting more than 4:1 on my money, especially when I have 2 overcards. What should I do here?
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Blinky
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: nutpeddlers anonymous
Posts: 459
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
I am mainly concerned about the flop play. Early limper or Blinds who call your late Pos raise then auto check raise your flop bet. How often are these bluffs?
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... it depends.
Are you cbetting everything? What is your table image? Is your opp a strong player? These things matter.
If the EP limp-caller is a tight player and seems to be multitabling, you could easily be looking at a set. If EP limp-caller is a retard, you can be more liberal with your betting.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by "2_thumbs_up
One thing I hate is when I raise PF in late position, one caller, flop comes all rags, I c-bet 2/3 pot and get min-checkraised. It feels stupid laying down a hand when I'm getting more than 4:1 on my money, especially when I have 2 overcards. What should I do here?
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1. Cbet less often.
2. If you think your overs are clean outs, you can consider calling.
3. 3bet. I wouldn't do this without a pretty good read though.
There is never any shame in laying it down if you think you're cooked. Just think of all those pots where you missed the flop but won on a cbet anyways.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
We will not support your pocket pair aggression.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
I am mainly concerned about the flop play. Early limper or Blinds who call your late Pos raise then auto check raise your flop bet. How often are these bluffs? If I raise AK then flop Kxx then get check raised, I start thinking set or someone trying to make a play with 2nd pair or a bluff. Looking for answers to this situation.
Thanks.
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Make a post with 2 or 3 of these that you run into with background on villains. Maybe the responses you get will help you deal with those specific cases and in general. Otherwise, this is too general to answer.
Here's an overgeneralization:
In general a check-raise is major strength. If you folded to every check-raise (ever) with less than pocket aces you would probably make more money than if you tried to figure out which ones are real and which ones are not (at 100NL and less).
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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This is what I was thinking. C/R = big hand. Sorry about the generalization, I was just thinking about this and wanted to get an idea about people who use this as a bluff.
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
This is what I was thinking. C/R = big hand. Sorry about the generalization, I was just thinking about this and wanted to get an idea about people who use this as a bluff.
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check raising works well on a paired board against a thinking player who is trying to steal the pot.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TerryToma
check raising works well on a paired board against a thinking player who is trying to steal the pot.
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I think it works better against thinking players if you c/c the flop and c/r the turn. Costs more when they're not going away, though. Also, you end up leading the river a lot instead.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
This is what I was thinking. C/R = big hand. Sorry about the generalization, I was just thinking about this and wanted to get an idea about people who use this as a bluff.
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i used it as a bluff a couple times the other night - I don't bluff with it often as it loses some meaning, but i had this guy on my left who was playing every hand and would come over me everytime I bet - he wasn't good, he just musta thought thats what you were supposed to do - So I had nothing but a gut draw and i decided i had enough - I potted the flop and then just called his raise - I checked the turn, he bet and i raised him the pot again - I then bet large on the river (with air, oh it felt so good)_ and got the guy to fold - Basically he quit trying to come over me after that....
but normally i'm only check-raising pretty good hands or pretty big draws - It works best when you are OOP to the pfraiser - I wouldn't advise check/raising against weak passives cause your just giving free cards too often when they check behind - but if you have 3 or 4 players with a preflop raiser and your in the SB or something, that is the best time to check raise -
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
i used it as a bluff a couple times the other night - I don't bluff with it often as it loses some meaning, but i had this guy on my left who was playing every hand and would come over me everytime I bet - he wasn't good, he just musta thought thats what you were supposed to do - So I had nothing but a gut draw and i decided i had enough - I potted the flop and then just called his raise - I checked the turn, he bet and i raised him the pot again - I then bet large on the river (with air, oh it felt so good)_ and got the guy to fold - Basically he quit trying to come over me after that....
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Pleeeease tell me that you showed. From then on out you can count on stacking this guy with TPTK+.
I usually do the c/r on turn either with air when I smell a float or with a strong hand to get me all in on the river. (though I usually just lead every street with both).
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