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RHCNNN
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12-20-2005, 10:54 PM
Post subject: Is check-raising [i]EVER approriate at low stake cash games?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 152
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I cannot think of any consistent instances where check-raising has gotten me the most value from hands at low stake NL cash games.
Check/raising is pretty much announcing you have a big hand, and if your opponent is bluffing they probably aren't going to put that much more money into the pot. Even against overaggresive idiots, I usually keep betting nice callable sized bets and they either keep on calling in some strange attempt to save face or reraise really big with nothing. Check-raising is sort of trying to end the pot right there, so I can kinda see that it might be useful when draws are on the board but uhhh.... does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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You are looking at it wrong. A check raise is useful when you don’t think he will call a strong bet.
You bet X, he folds. Net profit this street = 0
Compare with…
You check, he bets Y, you raise to Z, he folds. Net profit this street = Y.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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In no limit you really only want to check-raise with extremely strong hands (nut flush, full house, 4 of a kind) . And then in these situations you should check call the flop and check raise the turn. That will usually get the villain to throw two bets at you. The worst mistake in no limit is giving away a free or cheap deadly card that could break you.
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Les_Worm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,697
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I almost always flat call a raise with AK against an unknown preflop from the blinds. I also almost always check/raise the flop if an A or K comes.
Ex.
Unknown raises 4xBB with XX
I call with AK
Flop A 7 5
I check
Unknown Bets
I raise
I play it the same almost everytime.
I check/raise because I want control of the hand and betting and if I lead the flop, usually someone will just raise by default and then I have to re-raise to gain control.
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The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You
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Lukie
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12-21-2005, 12:54 AM
Post subject: Re: Is check-raising [i]EVER approriate at low stake cash ga
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#5 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RHCNNN
I cannot think of any consistent instances where check-raising has gotten me the most value from hands at low stake NL cash games.
Check/raising is pretty much announcing you have a big hand, and if your opponent is bluffing they probably aren't going to put that much more money into the pot. Even against overaggresive idiots, I usually keep betting nice callable sized bets and they either keep on calling in some strange attempt to save face or reraise really big with nothing. Check-raising is sort of trying to end the pot right there, so I can kinda see that it might be useful when draws are on the board but uhhh.... does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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I forget his exact wording, but Harrington says it best in HOH.. when you do a check-raise, your initial goal should be to win one extra bet from your opponent.
If the hand doesn't end there, then you can play the rest of the hand accordingly.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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at lower limits players will not notice if you bang in a c-bet evry flop then raise big preflop and check a rag flop in preperation for a check raise with an overpair. They dont see the anomaly there. Better players do. So as above, let them bluff at it! I often do it if i find a big hand in BB and i get 2 or three loose callers in LP who i know play marginal stuff and i hit the flop.
There is also the fact that despite the play at lower limits improving markedly i would say since i started playing poker, they still do not in most instances respect a check raise, it just looks like a bluff.
So yes, check raising is possibly THE most effective play at lower limits.
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SinkRox
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 624
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lodogg
In no limit you really only want to check-raise with extremely strong hands (nut flush, full house, 4 of a kind) . And then in these situations you should check call the flop and check raise the turn. That will usually get the villain to throw two bets at you. The worst mistake in no limit is giving away a free or cheap deadly card that could break you.
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then why check the flop, where op can get that dreadly free card!?
personally i like to check-raise when i have a semi decent hand (2pair on scary flop or TP low kicker) this is so to project im holding a better hand
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Experimenting - 200NL 5max.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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One of my goals of a CR is what EricE implies: The gain of his single bet, and hopefully his 'implied odds' call on your raise as well.
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Iconoclastic
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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When you're bluffing Tight Aggressive players. Yum
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bdawg56kg
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12-22-2005, 09:33 PM
Post subject: Re: Is check-raising [i]EVER approriate at low stake cash ga
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#10 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RHCNNN
Check/raising is pretty much announcing you have a big hand
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Use this to your advantage and start CR'ing on draws or with nothing at all (ie when you think the bettor is weak). If you only CR with the nuts, then yes, it does become a useless and ineffective move because your opponents will pick up on this and not pay you off with your big hands.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Les_Worm
I almost always flat call a raise with AK against an unknown preflop from the blinds. I also almost always check/raise the flop if an A or K comes.
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It's ok to call too. How many outs do you think he has?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Les_Worm
I check/raise because I want control of the hand and betting and if I lead the flop, usually someone will just raise by default and then I have to re-raise to gain control.
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If you c/r the flop, then lead the turn and get raised are you happy with how you've managed pot control?
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Les_Worm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,697
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
It's ok to call too. How many outs do you think he has?
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I'm not sure what you are saying here. I said I do call and you said its ok to call too. Did you mean raise?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If you c/r the flop, then lead the turn and get raised are you happy with how you've managed pot control?
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At that point it depends on what I can gather from how he is playing the hand. It depends on how big stacks are and how much I have invested. I'm either re-raising or folding. I'd much rather fold the best hand with little invested than call off my stack with the worse hand. Generally at the level I am currently playing the money isn't deep enough to fold and so I push there. Also, as far as I'm concerned everyone I play at my current level is a donk until they prove otherwise.
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The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You
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aislephive
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12-22-2005, 10:04 PM
Post subject: Re: Is check-raising [i]EVER approriate at low stake cash ga
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#13 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RHCNNN
Check/raising is pretty much announcing you have a big hand
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Use this to your advantage and start CR'ing on draws or with nothing at all (ie when you think the bettor is weak). If you only CR with the nuts, then yes, it does become a useless and ineffective move because your opponents will pick up on this and not pay you off with your big hands. |
The check-raise bluff is one of the strongest plays in NLHE against overagressive players.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Les_Worm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
It's ok to call too. How many outs do you think he has?
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I'm not sure what you are saying here. |
I like stringing around aggro players on 2 or 3 outs so they put more money in the pot instead of folding and have trouble putting me on a hand when I just call. I also like getting reads on turn bet sizes. Some players are pretty good about controling information leakage pre-flop and on the flop, but give great info on the turn. Against a weak turn player I would adjust my strategy to float more flops. I only really like the raise to balance out all of the times I raise this flop with air.
Against a 2+2er or FTR member, I probably flat call here between 25-50% of the time, depending on how much history we have.
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Fnord
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12-22-2005, 10:12 PM
Post subject: Re: Is check-raising [i]EVER approriate at low stake cash ga
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#15 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
The check-raise bluff is one of the strongest plays in NLHE against overagressive players.
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It depends on how far they take their hands. Great play against me. Bad play against the kamikazee LAgg with an over/under of going bust in 2 orbits.
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RHCNNN
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 152
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Hmmm.. I don't really get how the check-raise bluff is a great play against over-aggro players. Because if you are bluffing with no outs then what are you going to do if he calls your cute little check-raise? And what if your check-raise is a big fat one and he still calls? Now you commited a whole bunch of chips to a pot with no outs.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but this is the way I think when I decide to exclude this play... am I looking at this wrong?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RHCNNN
And what if your check-raise is a big fat one and he still calls? Now you commited a whole bunch of chips to a pot with no outs.
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Makes the hand really easy to play from there...
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Confucious say:
"In order to check/raise bluff profitably, you must first sense weakness accurately"
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Les_Worm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,697
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RHCNNN
what if your check-raise is a big fat one and he still calls? Now you commited a whole bunch of chips to a pot with no outs.
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I'm not talking about bluffing. I'm just talking about using the check/raise in general and mainly when I've got something. If it is a big bluff and he still calls you have two options. 1. Fire again. This is a stupid thing to do if you ask me, especially in a cash game. Most always you will just be donating. 2. You can give up. It didn't work, fold, nh....make a note, move on....
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The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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If you're playing against someone like me, you must do something like c/r bluff to keep me in line. Otherwise, I'm robbing you blind and getting maximum value out of my hands when I actually have something.
Bluffing is good, getting caught bluffing is great! People have lots of trouble with probabilities. Once they know that you *might* be bluffing, it's a license for them to give too much action on big streets (usually in raised pots) and that's were I make my money.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If you're playing against someone like me, you must do something like c/r bluff to keep me in line. Otherwise, I'm robbing you blind and getting maximum value out of my hands when I actually have something.
Bluffing is good, getting caught bluffing is great! People have lots of trouble with probabilities. Once they know that you *might* be bluffing, it's a license for them to give too much action on big streets (usually in raised pots) and that's were I make my money.
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quoted for truth.
I think fnord's trying to tell you guys it doesnt matter if you get caught check raising on a bluff. In fact, you want to get caught simply because then you get action when you start doing it more often or in pots where opp has a respectable hand but is behind.
Growssome balls make some balls, yeah in the short term you may need to reload some stacks but in the long term you'll get action
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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I think people are forgetting that against bad players at micro limits check raising is not a show of strength its just a way to get them to commit more chips.
If some of these guys put in a quarter of their stack with TPGK and you raise them they are more likely to call an allin then if they hadnt put any chips in first.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
yeah in the short term you may need to reload some stacks but in the long term you'll get action
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I rarely bluff for large amounts of my stack. Generally, I just splash around in small pots. It gets the job done. Although finding the right spot for the big bluff is something I'm looking for.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
yeah in the short term you may need to reload some stacks but in the long term you'll get action
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I rarely bluff for large amounts of my stack. Generally, I just splash around in small pots. It gets the job done. Although finding the right spot for the big bluff is something I'm looking for. |
yeah
i didnt mean whole stacks.
What situations have you found the big bluff to be unsuccesful in?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
What situations have you found the big bluff to be unsuccesful in?
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When I got back into 100NL I played around with the over-bet semi-bluff and got called just about every time. Most players at the site I play at give way too much post-flop action with medium strength hands. So I just started stacking them instead...
Hand from today.
EP limps
The table action follows from CO.
I just call from the SB with TT.
BB checks.
Flop is T 8 7
I lead for $4
folded to action who makes it $8
I push for just over $100
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RHCNNN
Hmmm.. I don't really get how the check-raise bluff is a great play against over-aggro players. Because if you are bluffing with no outs then what are you going to do if he calls your cute little check-raise? And what if your check-raise is a big fat one and he still calls? Now you commited a whole bunch of chips to a pot with no outs.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but this is the way I think when I decide to exclude this play... am I looking at this wrong?
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Usually when I c/r bluff I do have outs, but if I don't then I have a good read that they can't call my raise. Sometimes if I make the call from the SB/BB from a PFR and the flop comes like KK9, I often time checkraise here unless I know the player well. I check raise a lot when I'm at an aggro table, and after they realize that I'm doing a lot of c/ring they either start to come back over the top (good when I have the nuts) or they will give me a lot of free cards. Both are pretty good results for me.
They key when playing shorthanded is to seem more out of line than you actually are. I'm normally playing a lot of small pots and splashing around, and then somebody gets fed up and wants to play a big pot with me when I've got the nuts. It's a fun cycle.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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fnord
did opp call that bet?
thats the way id play hoping he chases/likes hand too much.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
did opp call that bet?
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Good news: He called
Bad news: Had had K 7
Good new: My hand held up
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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So are you a fan of pushing the made hand vs the big draws against the fish now? Or have u always played like that?
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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Check raising is a VERY valuable tool for getting maximum value out of your big hands against bad and average players in NL. The check raise bluff is a very good play against good, tight players (and if you're caught they'll know you're capable of a check raise bluff and so you can pull off some nice value check raises against them).
Fnord has the right idea about bluffing in No-Limit--it's disastarous when playing against good observant opponents if you never bluff because you'll get no action on your good hands. On the other hand, if you go charging in full steam playing for your stack blindly hoping they'll fold you're setting yourself up for a lot of destackings. The best way to get an action image without putting a lot of your chips at risk is to make a lot of small and medium sized continuation bet, scare card, and semi-bluffs.
I find the semi-bluff is a very useful tool in NL and I use this play A LOT (I semi-bluff draws virtually every time if the pot is unraised or I raised preflop). The expressed and implied odds combined with the folding equity make it a greatly +EV play and I've won lots of big pots when my neatly disguised draw connects.
Save your big bluffs for when you have a strong read that the other guy can't call, and I would recommend showing your lousy hand if your bluff succeeds to generate action later. Also remember, bluffs don't have to work close to every time to be +EV, just enough to justify the pot odds (i.e. potsized bluff has to work at least 1 in 2 times to be profitable, 1/2 potsized only has to work 1/3 of the time to be +EV.
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