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gohawks
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06-06-2005, 04:02 PM
Post subject: check raise... check again?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: iowa
Posts: 12
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i've been pondering this one myself and have come to no conclusions. (sorry for the lack of a hand histroy or specific example) but here is the situation...
say $10 sng...
personA checks then raises 5x the bet... turn comes raggy, and person checks again.
i just don't understand this play. personA has shown strength with the check raise. does personA expect personB to bet again. or was A check raising on a bluff??? i know this is quite general but i've seen it more than my share lately. do any of you use this strategy and if so what is the reasoning? i'm very intrigued  thanks much!
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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since its a 10$ sng, im give these guys credit for a pure dumbass and just check behind instead of getting check raised twice.
he could be playing for a free card as well.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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Surf_Thug
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 215
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I would assume in most cases it would indicate an attempted pot steal. When the pot steal didn't work the player decided to just check out the hand.
Although, I have used check/raise/check on a couple of occasions either to set a trap and make it seem like I was bluffing (while holding the nuts) or just to really mess with my oponent.
I have also had it used on me when my opponenet has a legit hand. He was also trying to induce me into betting again.
So I don't think a strong conclusion for every situation can be drawn, but for the most part I'd say it indicates weakness.
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Currently Playing 8 Tables of 25NL 10-Max.
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FishMagician
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 206
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Maybe person A thought person B's bet was weak on the flop so tried to steal the pot from him, and when he got called he figured person B actually had something so decided to give up on the pot. Harder to figure out without knowing what the actual cards are.
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daluchy
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 691
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Lol yeah w/o cards example it's hard to tell.
It's either a concealment of a good hand or a failed attempt to steal the hand.
Or actually option #3 I just thought of: the player put you on a hand and the turn put your hand over his
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pulling a courtiebee pŏŏl-ĭng ā kôrt-ē-bē (verb phrase):
1. overvaluing mid pocket pairs
2. knowing you should fold, but donkishly calling or raising anyway
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journey075
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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my guess is that its a bluff that was called.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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It obviously depends on the situation, but in general it probably indicates a failed bluff, or someone check-raising with what he/she thought was the best hand, then changing his/her mind after getting called.
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Sykedupp
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 550
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I sometimes use this play when im drawing to something, it usually gets me a free turn card. I'll check-raise the flop, check the turn, and the player who its checked to thinks "wtf im not falling for that again" and checks behind, giving me a free river card and effectively disguising my flush/straight. :P
-Chris
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
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journey075
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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if you use it out of position to get a free turn card, i have no idea what youre thinking. if you check-raise then check again...the guy would be an idiot if he checked behind. if he bets and you check-raise him again, it might be the the most awkward play.
getting a free card usually refers to having position on the raiser. this doesnt make too much sense.
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Sykedupp
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 550
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Works vs fish..... 
-Chris
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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I did this move in a casino recently.
It was a $100 minimum buyin (no maximum) NL ring table with blinds of 2-2-5 (and I had built my stack up to about $1.8k after buying in for $400). A very loose aggressive, not so good (in my opinion) player that had bought in for at least $3k and had pissed away at least $1k of that before this hand, and seemed like he was kind of tiltish.
I picked up JJ in the SB, and the guy raised it to like $20 in semi-early position (which meant nothing with this guy). I reraised to $80, everyone else folded, and he called. The flop came JT3 rainbow, and I checked. He bet $100, and I raised it to $300 and he called. A 9 came on the turn (also putting two of a suit on the board), and now I was a bit worried that he could have a straight (KQ would probably play the hand identically to how he had up to this point). Not wanting to lose my entire deep stack if he did have one, I checked the turn to him, planning on just calling if he bet big, and hoping for the river to pair so I could double up on the river if he did have a straight.
He then only bets $200, and I was almost positive with this guy's style that he'd bet a lot more with a straight here, as he wasn't the type to slowplay (he's the type to bet huge with the nuts and try to get my entire stack after I've shown strength). So again, I check raise him, making it $800 this time. He calls.
The river comes a rag, and I know I have him now. I put in $300 thinking he'll have to call that with anything, with such a big pot, and he does indeed call. He flips over his J8s (did pickup a flush draw on the turn), and I turn over my top set and scoop in a monster pot.
Normally I don't try and check raise a guy twice in one hand, but in this one it made sense to me, largely because I wanted to pick up on if he had caught a straight on the turn.
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journey075
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
I did this move in a casino recently.
It was a $100 minimum buyin (no maximum) NL ring table with blinds of 2-2-5 (and I had built my stack up to about $1.8k after buying in for $400). A very loose aggressive, not so good (in my opinion) player that had bought in for at least $3k and had pissed away at least $1k of that before this hand, and seemed like he was kind of tiltish.
I picked up JJ in the SB, and the guy raised it to like $20 in semi-early position (which meant nothing with this guy). I reraised to $80, everyone else folded, and he called. The flop came JT3 rainbow, and I checked. He bet $100, and I raised it to $300 and he called. A 9 came on the turn (also putting two of a suit on the board), and now I was a bit worried that he could have a straight (KQ would probably play the hand identically to how he had up to this point). Not wanting to lose my entire deep stack if he did have one, I checked the turn to him, planning on just calling if he bet big, and hoping for the river to pair so I could double up on the river if he did have a straight.
He then only bets $200, and I was almost positive with this guy's style that he'd bet a lot more with a straight here, as he wasn't the type to slowplay (he's the type to bet huge with the nuts and try to get my entire stack after I've shown strength). So again, I check raise him, making it $800 this time. He calls.
The river comes a rag, and I know I have him now. I put in $300 thinking he'll have to call that with anything, with such a big pot, and he does indeed call. He flips over his J8s (did pickup a flush draw on the turn), and I turn over my top set and scoop in a monster pot.
Normally I don't try and check raise a guy twice in one hand, but in this one it made sense to me, largely because I wanted to pick up on if he had caught a straight on the turn.
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check raising twice in this situation is very very secular. i think the original post was about check raising twice when drawing, not when holding the (close to) nuts and seeing weakness in your opponent.
to syked, i agree...fish would probably check behind 50+% of the time, making the move worthwhile. but theres no way in hell im checking behind.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Well, to me the original post seemed to be asking it what situations would a player attempt to check raise twice?
And so my post gives one example, particularly relating to deep stack ring play.
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journey075
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
Well, to me the original post seemed to be asking it what situations would a player attempt to check raise twice?
And so my post gives one example, particularly relating to deep stack ring play.
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could be, maybe i misread the original intent. and im not here to argue with you, i respect your play the most of anyone here :P.
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boyobach
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 86
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just testing.
This is my first post.
Check raising twice though, eh? All depends on the who your up against and what your table image is.
If you have a strong hand but a reputation for checkraise stealing on flop AND you KNOW the other player will bet again, a check on the turn would be an acceptale play i reckon.
I'm sure I must have done it a few times in the past
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pocket Jacks eh?
CANT WIN WITH 'EM
CANT WIN AGAINST 'EM
CANT FOLD 'EM
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I did this just last night in a $1/$2 no limit live game. It was folded to me in the small blind and I raised to $6 with K-8 offsuit, and the big blind (who was a big fish, and who I thought may've been a little drunk at the time) called. The flop came 8, 8, 5, and I knew him to be the type of player who couldn't check even the most marginal hands (I had seen him betting and calling raises with high cards a couple times), so I checked to him, he bet $10, I raised to $30 and he called. The turn was a 6, and I put him on something like ace high or a 5, so I checked to him again, figuring it was very likely he'd bet again if he thought his hand was good enough to call on the flop. He bet $20, and I raised all-in.
(By the way, after thinking for a minute, he called the extra $30 or so, the river was a 7, and he showed K-4 for a miracle runner-runner straight.)
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