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cbetting thread (previously More 10nl hands)

  
 
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TheScientist23
Old 12-24-2008, 12:00 AM     Post subject: cbetting thread (previously More 10nl hands) #1 (permalink)  
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I changed the name of the thread to something a little more descriptive
---------------------------------------------------
Hey more hands im checking up on. Some of them are pretty stupid on my part so dont hold back haha.


HAND 1:

Hero (CO) ($5)
Button ($10.35)
SB ($1.90)
BB ($13)
UTG ($9.85)
MP1 ($2)
MP2 ($10)
MP3 ($2.65)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, K
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, SB raises to $1.90 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero calls $1.40

This is an easy call, right? I'm pretty sure this is an inta-call, especially with my previous raise, I just want to know how well this hand holds up HU.


HAND 2:

SB ($4.75)
UTG ($9.80)
UTG+1 ($8.45)
Hero (MP1) ($7.60)
MP2 ($5.25)
MP3 ($2.30)
CO ($2.80)
Button ($3.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 10, 10
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, 4 folds, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.90) 8, K, A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, SB calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.90) K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.90) 9 (2 players)
SB bets $2.60, Hero...

Was the C-bet on the flop the right move? Amount? Not knowing what he had, I probably should have aimed it more around 2/3, right? But as stands theres no way Im ever, ever, ever, even going to think about calling this.


HAND 3:

UTG ($9.15)
UTG+1 ($1.85)
MP1 ($10.40)
Hero (MP2) ($6.35)
MP3 ($3.40)
CO ($3.90)
Button ($3.55)
SB ($9.95)
BB ($1.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q, A
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.40, MP3 calls $0.40, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 9, 10, J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, MP3 calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.15) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $2.20, Hero...

Another C-Bet in question.


Hand 4:

Hero (MP1) ($9.30)
MP2 ($4.65)
CO ($6.80)
Button ($1.60)
SB ($6.65)
BB ($14.10)
UTG ($13.05)
UTG+1 ($8.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, K
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.50, Hero raises to $1, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.15) 10, 9, 8 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2.15, Hero...

Should I have re-raised more pre-flop, or was he going to do this regardless of what I made my reraise? And there is no way at all I am ever calling this.


HAND 5

MP3 ($4.15)
CO ($2.65)
Hero (Button) ($6.45)
SB ($6.05)
BB ($2)
UTG ($1.35)
UTG+1 ($4.90)
MP1 ($2)
MP2 ($2.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, A
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.60, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.45) Q, 5, 7 (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.85, MP3 raises to $3.55 (All-In), Hero...

I seem to have a lot of c-bet problem hands...
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-24-2008, 01:01 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I'm not going to answer the first hand because I want you to download pokerstove and answer it yourself.

Hand 2, Are you betting for value? What worse hands call? Are you betting as a bluff? What better hands fold? I would not cbet this flop with TT.

Hand 3, If I am cbetting this flop it's because I'm throwing out multiple barrels. A LOT of hands can call one street and fold the turn. Fold after checking. Though, check/shoving would be a little badass.

Hand 4, shitty preflop 3 bet sizing. Why? I don't understand what you're asking about the flop???

Hand 5 um? I would fold.

RE: cbet problems. I don't think you're doing it right. Feel free to ask questions to help sure up your cbetting. I know it's one of the larger leaks around the BC.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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kmind
Old 12-24-2008, 01:06 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 I cannot answer any one of these.
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TheScientist23
Old 12-24-2008, 01:09 AM #4 (permalink)  
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What I showed above were just my c-bets that failed. I have plenty that work, but I'm still loosing a lot from the ones where I raise pre-flop, then make a flop c-bet and end up folding. What can I do better in regard to c-bets to help minimize the amount of times things like this happen?

Edit:
About hand 1, I have poker stove, but how can I set up a generic situation for this where I dont know too much about the villain?
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kmind
Old 12-24-2008, 01:17 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 You need to post reads on all villains and then ask our questions about your hands or any theories such as cbetting. Everything is dependent on your villain.

If you don't know much about villain I'd go for the "well the average player at this stake plays yada-yada so I'll estimate" deal. If you don't know that much, then definitely start playing more to get a better feel.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-24-2008, 01:18 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScientist23
What I showed above were just my c-bets that failed. I have plenty that work, but I'm still loosing a lot from the ones where I raise pre-flop, then make a flop c-bet and end up folding. What can I do better in regard to c-bets to help minimize the amount of times things like this happen?

Edit:
About hand 1, I have poker stove, but how can I set up a generic situation for this where I dont know too much about the villain?
what? Of course you have cbets that work. It doesn't mean that you're doing it right. I'm not going to right out a 2 page post on how to cbet, but I will answer any of your questions regarding the subject. I just don't have the energy to try to organize all of those thoughts.

I will say this. I know cbetting is one of your leaks.

And re: pokerstove. If you have pokerstove than it becomes easy. Keep changing his range until you find his minimum range for the move to be +EV. Then make an assumption on whether or not you think your opponent could likely have this range.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-24-2008, 01:22 AM #7 (permalink)  
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also re: what can you do better with your cbets? Have a reason for doing them. For value. As a bluff. To set up a multistreet line. Because a shit ton of awesome turn cards come. Because your opponent check/raises insanely light and you can get it in crazy light for profit.

Not because "being aggressive is good!"

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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TheScientist23
Old 12-24-2008, 01:24 AM #8 (permalink)  
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So I guess what I need to know most is the situations in which a c-bet is not the best option.

TT on an AK high flop is not a good idea, like you said above, even though he checked. Is this because if he hit a pair of kings he will check-call the flop?

Obviously, at least for now, I should limit my cbetting to head's up flops, otherwise I'm just throwing money away. I'm guessing I should take out more hands like the ones listed above where I have very little outs? C-betting with 2 over-cards is a lot better than c-betting with a relatively low pair, right?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-24-2008, 01:30 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Betting with TT on an AKx flop is just not part of my game. What worse hands can call your flop bet? None (99/88???). What better hands can? Kx, Ax. What better hands fold? QQ/JJ. Doing some crazy internal feel math tells me that cbetting this flop with TT is a bad idea.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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TheScientist23
Old 12-24-2008, 01:32 AM #10 (permalink)  
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I wasn't betting it for value. I was hoping since he checked, I could bet and take down the pot, representing the Ace. If he called, like he did, I wasn't going to put another penny in that pot, or is that not the right approach?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-24-2008, 01:33 AM #11 (permalink)  
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good cbetting should be a symptom of an overall awesome approach to NL Hold'em.

I remember when I used to cbet because "cbetting is profitable." Now I don't even think of them as cbets, simply as the first of a possible 3 street coherent line. I still treat preflop as a monster of its own.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-24-2008, 01:34 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScientist23
I wasn't betting it for value. I was hoping since he checked, I could bet and take down the pot, representing the Ace. If he called, like he did, I wasn't going to put another penny in that pot, or is that not the right approach?
Right, but all of the hands that fold were worse hands. And all of the hands that call are better hands. You really need to understand why because of this, it's really bad to cbet.

When you bet AA on a 3 9 J flop, you should be doing it because A LOT of worse hands can call but no better hands will fold.

When you bet KT on a 3 9 J flop it's because better hands can fold (Ax, 3x, 89), there are a lot of great turn cards for you, you have initiative to double barrel on a board which tends to get real bad for 1 pair hands

When you bet 44 on a 3 9 J flop you're burning money just trying to take it down.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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TheScientist23
Old 12-24-2008, 01:39 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I get it. I guess I was just trying to explain what was going through my mind at the time.

So on hands where I have next to no outs like that I should just check behind and fold turn. What about hands where I have 2 over cards on a dry flop? What about a flop with a draw? I'm guessing at 10nl its not very profitable to try to bluff people out of draws with 2 unpaired overcards because people like to chase?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-24-2008, 01:49 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScientist23
Yeah, I get it. I guess I was just trying to explain what was going through my mind at the time. super huge, valuable idea. A lot of BC could learn from the fact that they need to stop defending what they were thinking and start defending why they were thinking...

So on hands where I have next to no outs like that I should just check behind and fold turn. Right, but it's not about outs. It's about the value of your hand. If you have TT on an AKx board and your opponent has 88, you bet and he folds. Why not just check it down? He's never going to bet any street with 88 unless he spikes a set. With TT on AKx, I would think the only line my op can take which wins me money is to check down. And I'm gonna give him the opportunity to check down by checking every street.

What about hands where I have 2 over cards on a dry flop? Lets say KQ on a J73 flop. What hands can call your bet? Jx/7x/3x/89/9T/Q9? Of your ops entire range, what percent do you think these hands represent? (rhetorical question and for me more of a feel thing) and you sort of move from there. So when he folds X% of his range, do we profit directly? I'm having a hard time making it easier to understand since I know it's a bunch of really awkward thoughts from the outside looking in.

What about a flop with a draw? Again, let's say KQ on 789 flop. So many hands will call 1 street because so many hands make sets, two pair, pair+straight draw, or TPTK (Ax) on this flop. There are no good turn cards for us because even a Q means we're losing to two pair/set and pair+draws are drawing well against us and can move us off our hand. So I would just give up on the flop. Looking into the future, nothing good can come for our hand...

I'm guessing at 10nl its not very profitable to try to bluff people out of draws with 2 unpaired overcards because people like to chase? Hell yah, my roommate ran a 100 dollar br to 500 bucks at 10 nl and all I told him was to do everything for value. Don't bluff because the average mistake of the average 10 nl opponent is either being a fcking maniac or being too passive/cally

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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TheScientist23
Old 12-24-2008, 02:06 AM #15 (permalink)  
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I guess the most important thing I can take away from this thread is that I need to C-bet less. It shouldn't be automatic like I was making it.
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kmind
Old 12-24-2008, 02:15 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 I haven't read all of the responses but definitely don't make cbetting 100% and automatic. If that used to be your play then you have definitely identified a big leak. Congrats!
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TheScientist23
Old 12-24-2008, 02:17 AM #17 (permalink)  
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I didn't do it all the time, but after this thread I realized I was doing it a hell of a lot more than I should have been. Thanks for the help guys
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kmind
Old 12-24-2008, 02:24 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 Yeah just think of opponents range (this alone will make you a big winner at your stakes) and the board and figure out what kind of play would be best. If it hits his range and you have air you should be more inclined to check. That said, if it hits his range and we hold something that beats that range, we should more inclined to bet (larger, but you can bet a set amount like 2/3 if you want). Think of good boards in which barely any hands hit such as K72r.
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Monsieur_chat
Old 12-24-2008, 07:10 AM #19 (permalink)  
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All threads on BC should be like this one. Wp all parties.
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xptboy
Old 12-24-2008, 07:34 AM #20 (permalink)  
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more reads on villain needed to know about what you should have done on the hands...

anyways about the cbetting

I believe there two huge leaks in a typical microstakes player's game

Cbetting too much
- You’ve often been taught that cbetting is good through forums, High stakes players and instructional sites, so you cbet without regard for flop texture, player type and table conditions

- Questions to consider when cbetting
- How often does he fold to cbets?
- Am I IP or OOP
- How straightforward or tricky is this player? Do they only think about their hand or do they think about what I hold?

Playing turns passively
- Cbetting flops and then c/f turns is very weak/tight poker. It also means you are playing too many marginal hands OOP.
- Your focus should not be on pot control, but on extraction vs a player’s range, so even if you got 51% equity, bet for value
- By checking turns, you give the other player opportunities to take the initiative, this will put you in very complicated spots and we want to make our life easy
 
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Old 12-24-2008, 10:53 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
I haven't read all of the responses but definitely don't make cbetting 100% and automatic. If that used to be your play then you have definitely identified a big leak. Congrats!
Cbetting is really hard for me, because when I lowered my cbet % I probably stopped cbetting against opponents where it's profitable to do so... my won without showdown line dropped
cbetting is like an art and very read-dependent to do correctly against each opponent on each different type of flop
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Monty3038
Old 12-24-2008, 11:34 AM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScientist23
TT on an AK high flop is not a good idea, like you said above, even though he checked.
Betting TT into an AK flop is a bluff. You are repping the King or Ace... you can't stand any pressure on it... you're basically looking to take the pot right then, repping an Ace. If he plays back at you the hand is no good, fold it.

A lot of people though do c-bet this flop oop for information. I do this sometimes, though it might be a leak. I will c-bet it in hopes that villian believes I hit. Often though to make that point you have to c-bet fairly heavy. It also depends on whether you limped pre-flop or raised.

Not sure if that helps at all...
 
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kb coolman
Old 12-24-2008, 01:58 PM #23 (permalink)  
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This thread is pure awesomeness. It is a perfect coaching post, and what we need more of in the BC. This could be stickied.

Scientist - I admire your willingness to learn here. WP.

Rilla - I should QFT everything you've said here. This is precisely the type of teaching we need here in the BC. Thank you.
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hagscel
Old 12-25-2008, 04:17 PM #24 (permalink)  
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nice thread and.... did i detect an unexpected tone of unlame seriousness that makes beginners think?

nh, rilla
hags
sometimes naked
sometimes mad
now the fool
now the scholar
thus they appear on earth:
the free men.

-Hindu verse
 
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