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Cash HU vs STT/MTT HU
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Thunder
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01-24-2008, 07:02 AM
Post subject: Cash HU vs STT/MTT HU
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Is there any difference in the strategy/tactics/methods?
Is any A or pp gold and worth mega raising? Should you be raising or folding, no flat calling etc?
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taipan168
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Administrator
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
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The key difference between cash HU and (non-HU) tourney HU is stack sizes relative to blinds. Sit down at a HU cash game table and stacks will be 100x BB deep, leaving lots of room for postflop play. In a SNG, particularly a turbo SNG, stacks will often be only 10-15x BB by the time the tourney gets down to HU so most of the decision-making is preflop. On rare occasions in a SNG you get to HU when both players are still deep stacked, this throws a lot of people (including myself!).
It is difficult to give an overall guide to HU play, but my general principles are:
- Aggression wins! I do raise most hands that I want to play postflop unless opp is very passive and never raises if I complete, in which case I'll complete with more speculative hands that can flop something big
- Remember most hands miss most flops so if opp is being passive, you will often win the pot with a bet.
- Play more hands in position (SB/button) and less hands OOP. Try to avoid calling raises with marginal hands when you're in the BB since you have to act first on all postflop streets.
- Reads are very very important HU. Observation of how opp has played up to the point of HU is important, but many opps (myself included) switch gear once it gets to HU so you do need to continue to pay attention to how they play.
- It's too set out a definitive preflop hand chart, so much depends on stack/blind ratio, reads on opp, position, prior actions, your table image etc.
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Sheetah
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01-26-2008, 06:37 PM
Post subject: Re: Cash HU vs STT/MTT HU
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#3 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Is there any difference in the strategy/tactics/methods?
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Oh yes. Alot. I started with donkaments, did fine, but in the end switched to cash and now I know I'll never go back (unless I'm bored or something). First of all, like tai said: stack sizes. In donkaments you start with 50BB-ish and blinds are growing rapidly save the "no blinds increase" but even there you are faaaar away from deep stacks => most of your decisions are preflop and on the flop and that's it. In a nutshell correct strategy is start the war with tight range and extract value from there i.e. there's not much room for maneuvering and creative play. In cash and especially if both of you constantly reload up to 100BB it's common occurrence to play 150BB+ deep => there are four rounds of betting (not two) and it's up to you to find the best line and form a plan of how to play every single street and what to on X or Y scare card bearing in mind you have lots of money behind so your opponents often have implied odds.
That being said in donkaments draws are iffy hands while in cash those are your breed and butter ... don't get me wrong, most of pots you'll win will be made hand paid off by worse made hand, only even fishiest fish will find natural betting with top pair and that's what makes you good at best. However, as you move up and face more and more aggressive opponents, draws become more important and it is how you decide whether to call (implied odds) or bet/raise (semibluff) what makes you great.
Also it's important to note that HU cash is the swing-iest form of poker. Even for lower stakes 30 buyins are the MINIMUM. HU-donkaments are also swingy but not as much as cash and for lower levels I'd say 20 buyins are fine, 25 preferred. As you move up tend to double aforementioned numbers.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Is any A or pp gold and worth mega raising?
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Correct answer is: ummmm ... it depends .... hell yes! 
On a serious note there are many factors to consider:
* position: from SB/BTN these are insta raise, but from BB I'll let go weaker aces
* opponent's aggression factor: if for example you are playing overaggressive donk capable of multi street bluffs then limping small PPs is better (implied odds) than playing big pot with underpair, etc.
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Should you be raising or folding, no flat calling etc?
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(just preflop, although some concepts apply post as well)
SB/BTN: yes.
BB: mostly yes but not always (depending on who you play with).
The second part is science of it's own and I won't even pretend I can give you good answer. There is no quick-n-easy way and you'll have to learn the hard way. For start I suggest you play very VERY tight from BB and slowly start experimenting with 3bet.
If you decide to give it a try take my advice and drop down in stakes. My very first 'get feet wet' session turned into 'surfing the tsunami'. I was swinging up and down like crazy ending the day with 3 BI lost and ton of frustration. But this is probably a normal stage of one's evolution and it won't take long till you settle down and start feeling confident again. Even if you later realize you don't like it, your time will be well spent - HU cash will force you to think more than ever before and when you switch back to 6max+you'll be surprised how much your game has improved from that 'nitty educated tight is right' mentality - before you could even notice.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Thx for the replies guys. I thought no one was going to answer! 
Sheetah:
Quote:
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only even fishiest fish will find natural betting with top pair and that's what makes you good at best.
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That's certainly an eye opener. Doing so is bad play? Even with no draw on board? And even if there is, surely you can't show weakness and fold/check just because there's 2 hearts on the flop as any good player will note your hesitation and represent the flush.
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However, as you move up and face more and more aggressive opponents
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Which, added to the fact there are no other players to act, makes it all the more likely you can be put to the sword more often, doesn' it? And that a sole pair will be good enough - certainly more so than with 4 others to act?
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draws become more important and it is how you decide whether to call (implied odds) or bet/raise (semibluff) what makes you great.
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Always a tricky area for me. On the most ridimentar level you can argue that because an opponent has bet, he will bet again, thus giving you implied odds. Now this isn't always the case as we know. And that's the trick. Generally speaking, in tounrey play, I call against the odds and for the implied dds when I knwo my opp is vey confident (say top pair) but I have a strong draw with numerous outs: OES, flush etc.
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* opponent's aggression factor: if for example you are playing overaggressive donk capable of multi street bluffs then limping small PPs is better (implied odds) than playing big pot with underpair, etc.
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I was up against a few opponents who would raise every single pot to 4 or 5xbb as their de facto move. A simple reraise made them drop the hand on most occasions but when I have been reraised, and I have 88 or AJ+, it made me wodner whether - as in a tourney - I should open shove.
For the record, I am not a fan of cash HU from the recent experiences this past week.The swings do seem immense. It just seemed as much as a crapshoot as tourney play but with the real chance to lose big. And I find the aggression to be overt to the point where 1) it's not even fun to play against - just predictable and 2) it became a bit of a bingo game: he raises, I reraise, flop comes, he insta calls with an all in (and he ws bluffing the few times I called him). I took $240 off a guy before I lost it back to him on one hand that anyone would go broke on: KA on a KKA flop.
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Even if you later realize you don't like it, your time will be well spent - HU cash will force you to think more than ever before and when you switch back to 6max+you'll be surprised how much your game has improved
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I may just stick with it then. Problem is, I find cash dull and HU to be mega boring. But if it will improve my game then so be it
Thx for the response.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Thunder, what on earth levels are you playing at where you can win/lose $240 in a hand?!
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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It was .25/.5, I entered with $50, and he kept topping his balance up to match my stack - which was growing due to accumulating his money.
It got worse. I was so angry that I brought in my reamining stack - the $230 from my "Surfing With The Alien" challenge and went Rambo Tilt. It worked for all of 3 hands before he called me with a terrible hand that outdrew my terrible hand.
Tilt in tourneys isn't much of an issue but in cash - just call me Nemo.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
It was .25/.5, I entered with $50, and he kept topping his balance up to match my stack - which was growing due to accumulating his money.
It got worse. I was so angry that I brought in my reamining stack - the $230 from my "Surfing With The Alien" challenge and went Rambo Tilt. It worked for all of 3 hands before he called me with a terrible hand that outdrew my terrible hand.
Tilt in tourneys isn't much of an issue but in cash - just call me Nemo.
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It's not just a question of tilt, it's a question of bankroll management, and this is the perfect example of why we all need it!
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Quote:
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only even fishiest fish will find natural betting with top pair and that's what makes you good at best.
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That's certainly an eye opener. Doing so is bad play? |
No, no, no, it's fine and it's what you are supposed to do. But if you bet made hands and suck at playing draws AND your opponent bets made hands and sucks at playing draws then in the long run both of you are losers due to rake (somewhat simplified but you get the idea). To excel you must learn when to (semi)bluff and when to call with draw-ish hands AND value bet thinner since, well this is HU where no one never has anything.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Quote:
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Even if you later realize you don't like it, your time will be well spent - HU cash will force you to think more than ever before and when you switch back to 6max+you'll be surprised how much your game has improved
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I may just stick with it then. Problem is, I find cash dull and HU to be mega boring. But if it will improve my game then so be it |
Agree with donkaments being mega boring, but CASH DULL ?? NO WAY!!
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