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Cash Game vs. Tourneys

  
 
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jrubb42
Old 10-07-2006, 09:23 PM     Post subject: Cash Game vs. Tourneys #1 (permalink)  

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Ok, well let me start off by saying tournament play is how I started getting interested in poker. I played with a few friends every so often which turned into playin 20 dollar tournaments 3 or 4 times a week. I've been very successful then turned to the online tourneys. I've seen alot of success there, but also alot droughts. Last week was a good week making it to three final tables in a row at a 20 dollar MTT with about 150 ppl (1st,3rd,6th).
My question is how come I struggle SO much when I try playing cash games. I've tried playin limit, but that is way too frustrating with people chasing non-stop. I played some NL, but I'm a very tight player and it seems like I dont make anything.
What strategies do people use when adjusting their play from tournament to cash games? Anything would help. Thanks
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martindcx1e
Old 10-07-2006, 10:26 PM #2 (permalink)  
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in cash games it's usually not OK to play for your stack with stuff like TPTK. you usually shouldn't play huge pots w/o the nuts (or really close to it). cash game players are much more patient than tourney players. you have to give enough action in cash games to get your monsters paid, but you can't give so much action that you bleed chips.
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Chicago_Kid
Old 10-16-2006, 12:45 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
in cash games it's usually not OK to play for your stack with stuff like TPTK. you usually shouldn't play huge pots w/o the nuts (or really close to it). cash game players are much more patient than tourney players. you have to give enough action in cash games to get your monsters paid, but you can't give so much action that you bleed chips.
I play implied odds a lot more in cash games, and seek to play them against big stacks, where in tourneys I'm much more careful against big stacks.

I also play a little looser in cash games to generate action, like martin said.

As far as similarities, in both ring and tourney you should abuse people in position and punish draws incessantly.
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Renton
Old 10-16-2006, 12:53 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 basically the only difference is that you make thinner bets and calls in cash games because the risk of ruin is 0%. Also, stacks are deeper, so speculative hands (small pairs, suited connectors) are where all the money is and big unpaired cards are crap.
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rethuglican
Old 10-16-2006, 02:59 PM #5 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
basically the only difference is that you make thinner bets and calls in cash games because the risk of ruin is 0%. Also, stacks are deeper, so speculative hands (small pairs, suited connectors) are where all the money is and big unpaired cards are crap.
I'd been playing tourneys and SNGs since I started playing poker up until several few weeks ago. I've found, thus far, what Renton said to be bang on.

In the SNGs I was uber TAG seeing maybe 10%-15% of flops on average. In the cash games I'm on 6max tables and have loosened up my starting hands accordingly. I'm now seeing between 20-30%.

When I can see a flop cheap I've started playing, depending on position, suited connectors (including lower ones like 45 which was never in my repetoire prior to this unless I was BB) and gappers. When they hit... they pay off very well. It's especially true against a big stack. It seems that they like to wield their stack to push you off your hand. Sometimes they catch on that their beat and fold, sometimes, you get a sweet double up.

Good luck with it.
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Warpe
Old 10-16-2006, 03:40 PM #6 (permalink)  
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biondino
Old 10-16-2006, 03:58 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Hurray for gappers! 68s hit me a nut straight in the small blind yesterday and I didn't stack anyone, but I took two others to the river (where I got a call) and managed to more than double up anyway.

(p.s. the small blind isn't my position du choix for gappers obv, but it was a family pot and 25p into a £2.75 pot to see a flop, and from then on the fact that two people stayed in the hand to the river meant I kept my odds and bingo!)
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martindcx1e
Old 10-16-2006, 06:01 PM #8 (permalink)  
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in full ring i'm really afraid of small-medium sc's and gappers. i've gotten into trouble too many times when i complete my flushes with them. seems to me the only things they are good for are straights or getting HU with a pfr and surprising the crap out of their overpair.
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biondino
Old 10-16-2006, 08:22 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
Hurray for gappers! 68s hit me a nut straight in the small blind yesterday and I didn't stack anyone, but I took two others to the river (where I got a call) and managed to more than double up anyway.

(p.s. the small blind isn't my position du choix for gappers obv, but it was a family pot and 25p into a £2.75 pot to see a flop, and from then on the fact that two people stayed in the hand to the river meant I kept my odds and bingo!)
Here's the hand:


No Limit Hold'em CryptoLogic (£50NL)
Converted by FTRConv
6-handed

StacksUTG: £47.35
UTG+1: £41
CO: £43.05
BTN: £29.60
Hero: £55.70
BB: £39.70


Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 6 8
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, BTN calls, Hero calls, BB checks

Flop:(£3.00) 5 7 K (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, BTN bets £2.50, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO folds

Turn:(£10.50) 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets £3.50, BTN calls, Hero calls
River:(£21.00) 4 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets £5, BTN calls, Hero raises to £15, UTG calls, BTN folds
Final Pot: £56.00
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Ash256
Old 10-16-2006, 08:24 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 A huge mistake that tournament players make when moving to cash games is AK.
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Jager
Old 10-16-2006, 09:14 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I have learned to play non nut flushes for small to medium pots, unless I can tell that I'm against an overpair or set. The hands with big implied odds that pay off are Sets and Straights. These are the hands you need to win big pots. No one ever gives you credit for hitting that nut straight, its like they are thinking he doesn't really have 98o...


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($196)
Hero ($339.15)
SB ($110.60)
BB ($226.25)
UTG ($165.30)
MP1 ($205.10)
MP2 ($248.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, 9.
3 folds, CO calls $2, Hero calls $2, SB raises to $4, 1 fold, CO calls $2, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($14) T, J, 7 (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4, CO calls $4.

Turn: ($26) A (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $20, SB raises to $40, CO folds, Hero calls $20.

River: ($106) 5 (2 players)
SB bets $62.6 (All-In), Hero calls $62.60.

Final Pot: $231.20

Results in white below:
SB has Jc Js (three of a kind, jacks).
Hero has 8d 9c (straight, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins $231.20.
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bdawg56kg
Old 10-17-2006, 07:53 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager
I have learned to play non nut flushes for small to medium pots, unless I can tell that I'm against an overpair or set.
wtf? No. And your play in that hand is atrocious. Pot flop, shove turn.

OP: The key difference between tourney v. cash is that in cash games stacks are much deeper, allowing for more post flop play. Hence implied odds go up which is why a lot of tourney players suck at cash games. They tend to take their one pair hands too far. ie top pair is the nuts in a tourney but not so in a cash game.
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Jager
Old 10-17-2006, 01:24 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager
I have learned to play non nut flushes for small to medium pots, unless I can tell that I'm against an overpair or set.
wtf? No. And your play in that hand is atrocious. Pot flop, shove turn.
Well I never pot flop for deceptive purposes, if I always send out what looks like a cbet I get more callers when I hit and I keep the pot smaller on marginal hands like TPTK, 2 pair, etc. I was fully expecting a C/R from SB on this hand. Why pot flop w/ the nuts in a small 3 way pot? To push everyone out? Maybe not the way you would of played it, but I still stacked him...

After reviewing my first 100k hands of play my winrate would have been 12ptbb/100 if I didn't push small flushes, this is by far the hands I got stacked off the most on, relatively they are just not that strong.
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Ash256
Old 10-17-2006, 02:43 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 IMO, $10-$14 in a $14 pot looks more like a cbet than $4. $4 looks like a great made hand trying to slowly bloat the pot and keep people in.
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Warpe
Old 10-17-2006, 02:58 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager
Maybe not the way you would of played it, but I still stacked him...
Results oriented.

Betting $4 into a $14 pot on a two-tone board is asking to get stacked. You are giving flush draws better than correct odds to call. You make money in ring by capitalizing on your opponents' mistakes. If a flush draw completed and took down this hand, the mistake would've been all yours, deservedly so.

I make it at least $10<pot, 3-way.
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Jager
Old 10-17-2006, 07:23 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Well I agree that my flop bet was too low, but isn't it true that you can't eliminate implied odds for a flush draw on the flop? If someone had a flush draw they would call or raise this flop. If this is the case then there is no bet that takes out a flush draw on the flop in this hand.
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Warpe
Old 10-17-2006, 07:28 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 Pot odds. You have to at least give your opponent incorrect pot odds to call.
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martindcx1e
Old 10-17-2006, 07:44 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Betting $4 into a $14 pot on a two-tone board is asking to get stacked.
Hopefully Jager would not allow himself to be stacked if the flush completed. I agree he should have bet more on the flop, but I doubt he's risking losing his stack by betting less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager
After reviewing my first 100k hands of play my winrate would have been 12ptbb/100 if I didn't push small flushes, this is by far the hands I got stacked off the most on, relatively they are just not that strong.
Agreed. In full ring, I think limping in LP in big multi-way pots with stuff like 56s is asking to get stacked.
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Warpe
Old 10-17-2006, 07:47 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Betting $4 into a $14 pot on a two-tone board is asking to get stacked.
Hopefully Jager would not allow himself to be stacked if the flush completed. I agree he should have bet more on the flop, but I doubt he's risking losing his stack by betting less.
..."sucked out on" then. You know what I mean...
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martindcx1e
Old 10-17-2006, 08:21 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Betting $4 into a $14 pot on a two-tone board is asking to get stacked.
Hopefully Jager would not allow himself to be stacked if the flush completed. I agree he should have bet more on the flop, but I doubt he's risking losing his stack by betting less.
..."sucked out on" then. You know what I mean...
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miw210
Old 10-21-2006, 03:25 AM #21 (permalink)  

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I started out having the same problem. For much of my poker career, I played SnGs exclusively because that's where the money was for me. Ring games usually ended badly for me.

At some point, I realized that ring style games are a lot more different than I thought. Bdawg hits it on the head:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
OP: The key difference between tourney v. cash is that in cash games stacks are much deeper, allowing for more post flop play. Hence implied odds go up which is why a lot of tourney players suck at cash games. They tend to take their one pair hands too far. ie top pair is the nuts in a tourney but not so in a cash game.
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