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paratrooper99
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08-11-2010, 04:45 AM
Post subject: Can you really make $ in micro stakes.
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 135
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Ive been on this forum for about a year and have learned a great deal. I really value the input and opinions here. I have been up and down in bankroll for the last 2 years and cant seem to grind a profit in small stakes. I have tried lag, tag, rock, set mining, nut camping, etc and can not make a profit in 2nl,5nl,10nl or 25nl. I look up stats at an average table and find that almost all the players are either breakeven or losing players. How can you win at these stakes?
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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Have you tried putting people on ranges?
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(Josh)
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paratrooper99
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 135
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Im pretty good on placing villians on ranges. Even without Pokertracker, I can find a reg and guess the preflop ranges fairly easily. It is the players that dont have many hands that I find trouble. It just seems that in lower stakes that fold equity is laughable to villians and that takes away alot from the strategies that this site implores.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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Have you tried putting people on ranges postflop?
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(Josh)
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Have you tried value betting?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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What about folding?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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paratrooper99
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 135
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Yes on postflop as well.
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tomato paste carnage
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: in a van down by the river
Posts: 115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99
Im pretty good on placing villians on ranges. Even without Pokertracker, I can find a reg and guess the preflop ranges fairly easily. It is the players that dont have many hands that I find trouble.
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You can find regs without using PT3, but have trouble with villains that you don't have hands on? You just contradicted yourself.
You should try playing without a HUD at a reduced number of tables, and reviewing your sessions afterwards. I guarantee you'll pay more attention and begin to make better reads and range estimates.
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Tilt is poker cancer. You catch it, you die.
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paratrooper99
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 135
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Does anyone have a good profit on microstakes over alot of hands?
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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BR at 330, started at 50 playing 2nl over about 70k hands (god i suck, it shouldnt have taken that long)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99
Does anyone have a good profit on microstakes over alot of hands?
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I think everyone that's posted in this thread does.
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(Josh)
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supa
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 985
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Study, discipline, and bankroll management. From your original post it seems you're lacking the discipline part. As for your above question, if you've been studying this forum for a year, you should already know the answer.
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“Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all”
Put hero on a goddamn range part II- The 6max years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
start using your brain more and vagina less
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rpm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: learnin'
Posts: 2,039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99
Does anyone have a good profit on microstakes over alot of hands?
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what do you mean? if you are looking to grind a roll to take to High Stakes Poker from exclusively micro-stakes online then no, no-one has a "good" profit" over a lot of hands. however, anyone who applies themself to the game - regularly posting hands for discussion/criticism in the apt format in FTR and studying the most basic theory posts/articles about pot odds/implied odds/blind stealing/equity/ranges etc. can beat these games for enough to move up in stakes and eventually make a "good profit".
if your question is "does anyone win money at micro-stakes?" then look up any of the monthly BC graph threads.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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The good news is the answer is easy: You don't study enough, you don't post enough hands, you don't discuss poker enough with players better than you, and the list goes on. Try coming into the #flopturnriver IRC channel to talk with the 20-30 people who are in there all the time about poker.
The bad news is (because you're a human being) there's a high chance you won't allow yourself to get better because it would require you to realize you're not nearly as good as you think you are, and because it will take some serious work to improve.
In any event, good luck.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2368/microdonkin.png
{Edit: Changed to a link because it's really wide. --spoonitnow}
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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disclaimer: +$240 in aiev due to IRC game flips
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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Yes. Post your stats. Post your hands. Bluff less. Value bet more. Learn to love b/f.
!luck
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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admitting that one sucks at poker;
recognizing greater players that have the ability to help you improve;
examining past errors with the help of a sponsor (experienced member);<---this one works just fine
learning how to go about fixing these errors;
learning to destroy microstakes with this new found knowledge;
helping others that are blinded in their judgement by how good they really think they are.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99
I look up stats at an average table and find that almost all the players are either breakeven or losing players. How can you win at these stakes?
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Have you really thought about what you have written there? And following on from that do you think about why you are playing a hand the way that you do. Do you play it the same against a maniac as you would against a nit?.You talk about fold equity and don't think about the most common mistake micro players make which is calling too much. If they call too much how the hell are you going to have fold equity?.What do you think the winning regs are going to do....stay stuck at 2nl or 5nl and rape the 2nl fish for peanuts or move up and keep moving up to a stake where they can make decent money.
The long term regs at a stake are there because they aren't good enough to beat the stake they are playing so they will continue to stay at that stake and therefore when you look them up they will be break even or losing.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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How to Get a Free Sweat Session From Someone Who Would Kick Your Ass at Poker
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(Josh)
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StarGrinder
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UTG (aka USA)
Posts: 683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99
...and can not make a profit in 2nl,5nl,10nl or 25nl
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Ahem...
If you didn't make a profit at 2nl, why would you play 5nl?
If you didn't make a profit at 2nl and 5nl, why would you play 10nl?
If you didn't make a profit at 2nl, 5nl and 10nl, why would you play 25nl?
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Took a $10 BR to $1700 in a little over a year last year. So I'm going to say yea... micro's are beatable.
Except: NO MONEY FR, EVERYONE'S SOLID
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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{Deleted Some Posts}
Stop trolling please.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Something is glaringly wrong with your play if you are not winning at the micros. There are no secrets. Everything is presented in this forum. Most of the high stakes players started at the micros. I bet you could become a winner in less than a week if you really put an effort at it and talk to the right people/read the right stuff/put the hours in.
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shallam
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 98
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I have a hint for you at the very low stakes. Pay very special attention to the *BET SIZES*. You won't always know what hand you are opp has but you'll very often have idea when your beat.
Here are a few more....
1. Don't worry about getting bluffed. Fold when you are beat.
2. Value bet more and bluff less. Use small bet sizes to bluff, for value bets determine the value of your hand and bet that amount. When you have the nuts, go all in by the river. Do NOT slowplay big hands.
3. Consider going all in with AA. Not too long ago my all in was called by AK with ~250 BB. I won and doubled the max buy in. My opp was in disgusting miserable shape on this hand -- for mucho BBs. Let them make huge mistakes.
4. Consider min raising PF with speculative hands like small pairs, weak suited aces, suited connectors in late position or on the button.
5. Copy and past interesting hands to your word processor, then go over those hands. If you lost ask yourself if you could have lossed less and when you win ask yourself if you could have lost more. Also consider copy and pasting very large pots that other player are in, and hands where people go all in PF, etc.
Figure out answers to questions like, "when I have AK how many bb will I call when someone goes allin ?".
6. Don't pay any attention whatsoever to what you see on TV. TV poker, High Stakes poker and WPT are completely different poker than low stakes. Pros get more value from deceiving each other and those games all have antes which increases the pay off for bluffing.
7. Finally, for me, the most important thing to remember is what I call THINK TIME. When I'm acting too quickly I'm playing poorly. Take your time, think thru what you are doing. This is most especially true when you get raised, you are facing a big bet or you are thinking about going all in.
Take your time.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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outlaw should post his graph, iirc he makes about $2k/month playing 25nl.
Yes, micros are beatable. All the tools are available to you, up to you
best of luck!
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paratrooper99
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 135
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Thanks for all the posts. Any suggestions on what threads to start with and I do play Full Ring. Should I play short handed?
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Play whichever you're most comfortable with. I was kidding about the no money fr thing.
Start with the BC, post hands, comment on hands that are posted. Figure out what the flaws in your thinking process are and correct them. Easy game yo.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99
It is the players that dont have many hands that I find trouble. It just seems that in lower stakes that fold equity is laughable to villians and that takes away alot from the strategies that this site implores.
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It sounds like you might be "imploring some strategies" at poor times (like bluffing people who won't fold).
Unknown players (especially non-fullstacked players) at the microstakes should be assumed to be loose-passive until they prove otherwise. It's common for new taggs to learn "too much", and misapply some concepts resulting in FPS (fancy play syndrome).
The microstakes are easy to beat with straightforward play -- it just takes the discipline to play a solid game consistently.
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TheMaverik91
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 56
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Play ABC poker which essentially boils down to this:
- Only play hands you would raise (and if it's not raised yet, then do so)
- Fish don't bluff. Just because you think there's no way he's holding 75o from EP for the straight, he is. Trust me, lost several buy-ins from that shit yesterday.
- Learn continuation betting, value betting, and to Bet/Fold. Learn where and when to apply these techniques. If you don't know what they are, a simple google search will tell you along with some nice strategies. That's what I did for value betting yesterday.
- Put your opponents on a hand range. I know this will be hard to do on some fish/maniac, but chances are if he opened 4x bb in EP, he's holding premium hands. Learn to watch what he does for future help on putting him on a range.
- Loose the fancy shit. Just because you think you know to Float, Slow play, delay c-bet, or bluff 3 streets, doesn't mean you actually know how to do it right. Chances are, it's not going to be helpful on fish anyways.
-Each limit is broken down into certain aspects you need to learn. For the lower limits, it's pre-flop and post flop play as well as positional advantages and what they mean to you. When you get higher, then you'll start to learn the fancy crap and realize how much of a donk you were for trying to use it in the LOLlimits.
- IRC. Read it. Join in it. Learn from it. Love it. : IRC Post
- You're still reading this post? Get your ass moving. You won't get anywhere in poker without a little work.
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"Looking at my old posts, I realize how much of a DONK I was. Time to change that and TRULY learn how to play poker. No more ego. No more pride. Just me, my cards, and the great knowledge bestowed upon me by FTR."
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Sasquach991
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rat Cheer
Posts: 1,012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaverik91
- Loose the fancy shit. Just because you think you know to Float, Slow play, delay c-bet, or bluff 3 streets, doesn't mean you actually know how to do it right. Chances are, it's not going to be helpful on fish anyways.
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I think that watching too many videos can cause this. Just cause M2M, Spenda and CodeRed do it doesn't mean you know how to do it correctly
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"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaverik91
You won't get anywhere in poker without more work than you've probably done on anything in your life.
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fyp
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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This is really sound advise. Not that all the others aren't giving good info as well but I read this and really liked it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shallam
I have a hint for you at the very low stakes. Pay very special attention to the *BET SIZES*. You won't always know what hand you are opp has but you'll very often have idea when your beat.
Here are a few more....
1. Don't worry about getting bluffed. Fold when you are beat.
2. Value bet more and bluff less. Use small bet sizes to bluff, for value bets determine the value of your hand and bet that amount. When you have the nuts, go all in by the river. Do NOT slowplay big hands.
3. Consider going all in with AA. Not too long ago my all in was called by AK with ~250 BB. I won and doubled the max buy in. My opp was in disgusting miserable shape on this hand -- for mucho BBs. Let them make huge mistakes.
4. Consider min raising PF with speculative hands like small pairs, weak suited aces, suited connectors in late position or on the button.
5. Copy and past interesting hands to your word processor, then go over those hands. If you lost ask yourself if you could have lossed less and when you win ask yourself if you could have lost more. Also consider copy and pasting very large pots that other player are in, and hands where people go all in PF, etc.
Figure out answers to questions like, "when I have AK how many bb will I call when someone goes allin ?".
6. Don't pay any attention whatsoever to what you see on TV. TV poker, High Stakes poker and WPT are completely different poker than low stakes. Pros get more value from deceiving each other and those games all have antes which increases the pay off for bluffing.
7. Finally, for me, the most important thing to remember is what I call THINK TIME. When I'm acting too quickly I'm playing poorly. Take your time, think thru what you are doing. This is most especially true when you get raised, you are facing a big bet or you are thinking about going all in.
Take your time.
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it  |
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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I just played 25NL for the first time in weeks and akdlfasdf is it soft as shit. It was infested with regulars who are absolutely terrible. This is more of a tilt post as I lost a bunch but you're good enough to crush 25NL.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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25nl confirmed soft as a baby's ass, just don't do retarded shit like bluff 3 streets with no equity.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dranger7070
25nl confirmed soft as a baby's ass, just don't do retarded shit like bluff 3 streets with no equity.
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Exactly what I did vs a reg in a 3bet pot 100bb deep. His Khi is good (he called the 3bet) after calling a $9 bet into $11 on the turn chasing the flush draw.
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Exactly what I did vs a reg in a 3bet pot 100bb deep. His Khi is good (he called the 3bet) after calling a $9 bet into $11 on the turn chasing the flush draw.
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Obviously you never bluffed the 3rd street or it would have worked!
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Kountess
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High Card
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 5
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Great tips/ideas. I even forget the little things like bluff less, I just put that in my notes. Thank you!!
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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YouTube - Mad TV Bob Newhart Skit - Mo Collins - Stop it
^^ replace Cathrin's troubles with your own and get a free coaching session!
My coaching sessions are structured in very much the same way if anyone is interested.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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