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StageWhisper
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07-24-2007, 04:44 PM
Post subject: Can we talk about flopping combo draws?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 90
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I've lost more money in my regular 1/2 NL live game on flopped straight + flush draws this week than any other type of hand. I was hoping for some discussion on how to play these in different types of situations : in raised and limped pots, in and out of position, bet and raised in front of you and so forth. Any interesting HHs would be appreciated. Thanks.
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I'm just a girl, you should push.
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nUFamn
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 106
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Do you mean you've flopped straights and flushes, and ended up losing more times than winning? Or you've played with TPTK, sets, lower straights, and lower flushes, and lost to higher straights/flushes?
If the former, I'd say it's a combination of variance getting the best of you, or perhaps you're slowplaying them too much. I, too, like to slowplay great flopped hands.. at least delay action by one betting round from time to time so as to throw Villains off a bit.
If it's the latter, then you might need to just tighten up a bit and not play low connectors (or keep in mind that it's very possible for someone to have the upper-end of the straight) and not play low suited cards. I will definitely play A, K, Q, J with any other suited card for cheap just to see if I can get 2 or 3 more cards to a flush... but anything lower than that and I throw 'em into the muck.
Just my two cents.. I'm sure someone with more street cred will come and give you tips too! 
Edit: Sorry I didn't read... you flopped *draws*, not made hands. I'd just avoid betting the farm on them, and realize that the odds are against you making the hand. You should avoid betting people out of the pot, because the more callers, the better odds you get. If you end up in a heads up position, it would need to be small bets with relation to the pot in order to stick around, imo.
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by nUFamn
Do you mean you've flopped straights and flushes, and ended up losing more times than winning? Or you've played with TPTK, sets, lower straights, and lower flushes, and lost to higher straights/flushes?
If the former, I'd say it's a combination of variance getting the best of you, or perhaps you're slowplaying them too much. I, too, like to slowplay great flopped hands.. at least delay action by one betting round from time to time so as to throw Villains off a bit.
If it's the latter, then you might need to just tighten up a bit and not play low connectors (or keep in mind that it's very possible for someone to have the upper-end of the straight) and not play low suited cards. I will definitely play A, K, Q, J with any other suited card for cheap just to see if I can get 2 or 3 more cards to a flush... but anything lower than that and I throw 'em into the muck.
Just my two cents.. I'm sure someone with more street cred will come and give you tips too!
Edit: Sorry I didn't read... you flopped *draws*, not made hands. I'd just avoid betting the farm on them, and realize that the odds are against you making the hand. You should avoid betting people out of the pot, because the more callers, the better odds you get. If you end up in a heads up position, it would need to be small bets with relation to the pot in order to stick around, imo. |
OESD + Flush Draw + Overs = Flop shove almost 100% of the time unless villian only raises two pair+, or the stacks are ridiculously deep.
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StageWhisper
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 90
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My normal MO on these combo draws is to try to get it all in on the flop, but lately with live games with a lot of people check-calling and only raising with nut hands is killing me here. I feel like there is a lot less fold equity with low stakes live play, but when I do play these draws passively and miss I feel like there was a point in the hand where I could have taken it down. Blah.
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I'm just a girl, you should push.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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Quote:
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I've lost more money in my regular 1/2 NL live game on flopped straight + flush draws this week
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do I need to say it?
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gop2004
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UB SNG
Posts: 92
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
Quote:
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I've lost more money in my regular 1/2 NL live game on flopped straight + flush draws this week
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do I need to say it? |
lol!
At least I read to the end of the thread this time so I could see that someone had already (not) said it.
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Those who wander are often actually lost.
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StageWhisper
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 90
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I've also had more combo draws in the last week in more situations than I've faced in live games before - hence why I wanna talk about how to play them. Not completely results oriented, just want to make sure I'm doing right with them.
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I'm just a girl, you should push.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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At worst you are AK vs QQ preflop.
Felt that shit every time. It is possible that if you're really good you can figure the best for each situation, but seriously, it doens't much matter. Just felt em.
That is, OESD flush draws; not gutshot flush draws. Pair flush draws are very balla too.
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nUFamn
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 106
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I love your sig, wufwugy... could stare at it for hours.
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The future
Posts: 321
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D***it!!!
I spent like an hour on a very well thought out answer/demonstration. Then accidently deleted it somehow. I did have a good response though.
I hope this helps. 
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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StageWhisper
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 90
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Unibomber14
D***it!!!
I spent like an hour on a very well thought out answer/demonstration. Then accidently deleted it somehow. I did have a good response though.
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I'm just a girl, you should push.
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Unibomber14
D***it!!!
I spent like an hour on a very well thought out answer/demonstration. Then accidently deleted it somehow. I did have a good response though.
I hope this helps. |
Ctrl-Z
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Lithium
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 79
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An flush draw+ openend straight draw is only statistically ahead of a single pair after the flop. Change the villan's hand to either two pair or a set, and you are behind. I wouldn't recommend always shoving in this situation. In any event, you are still on a draw and need to improve to win the pot. You may be able to bluff a fair share of these, but as you noticed in a lower buyin NLHE, there is very little fold equity against some players.
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lithium
An flush draw+ openend straight draw is only statistically ahead of a single pair after the flop. Change the villan's hand to either two pair or a set, and you are behind. I wouldn't recommend always shoving in this situation. In any event, you are still on a draw and need to improve to win the pot. You may be able to bluff a fair share of these, but as you noticed in a lower buyin NLHE, there is very little fold equity against some players.
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Note in my assessment I said "unless villain's raising range is two pair+". Against a player who can laydown bottom two pair on a drawy board, shoving is the right play.
Also note that I said OESD + Flush Draw + overs. Even if you get it against 2pair or a set, all your straight outs are good, and at least 7 of your flush outs are good, which means you have 15 live guaranteed, not to mention the .25-.5 an out you get for possibly backdooring two pair yourself.. Usually there will always be enough dead money behind to shove, especially if the pot is multiway on the flop with a caller behind the flop opener.
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Unibomber14
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The future
Posts: 321
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by overflow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Unibomber14
D***it!!!
I spent like an hour on a very well thought out answer/demonstration. Then accidently deleted it somehow. I did have a good response though.
I hope this helps. |
Ctrl-Z |
Ctrl-R did it. F***ing refresh. I just wanted to run the calculator.
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"$80 million Submarine mansion. Think about it."
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,815
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Auto shoving seems bad to me. Why spend 100BBs accomplishing what 20 would?
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This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Well, yeah, shoving's bad. Who said to shove? Overbet shoving is how wannabes play aggressively.
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