Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

in 10k hands at pokerstars I've never seen someone 3 bet AI w/ QQ.

Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

in 10k hands at pokerstars I've never seen someone 3 bet AI w/ QQ.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

This is a 4bet and in a 10k hand sample Ive lost with both AA and KK, so that doesnt mean a ton. Anyways though, how many of those hands went to showdown, are you positive you saw all of them? If seen people do this with absolute junk and also decent hands [but not hands strong enough to play like this] like AQ. I think if you fold here without reads you are giving up money, even with reads I dont know if I can put somebody solely on AA and fold. With a ridiculous overbet like this, a lot of other factors come into play. Are they tilting? Have they made moves like this before? Etc.

But basically what Im saying here is that you cant fold KK to an unknown especially with a ridiculous bet that most people wouldnt make with a hand they want action with.

Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

sb's ai is the 3rd bet, and no im not folding KK to an unknown but if I know villian is anything but a donk I will lay down KK to this bet.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

It may be the 3rd literal bet, but it is a 4bet. The first raise is a 2bet, the reraise is a 3bet and the push is a 4bet.

Why would a solid player play AA like this? I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both. If the player is solid and so are you then your 3bet range shouldnt be narrow enough for him to expect his push to be profitable with AA.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i thought this was a straight forward fold considering how much of a skill edge we expect to have in this game when the money goes in in other spots...

Originally Posted by andy-akb

I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Sounds like a good reason for villain to shove

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Why would a solid player play AA like this? I honestly expect to only see this move from a complete donk or a player who is tilting, and Im calling from both. If the player is solid and so are you then your 3bet range shouldnt be narrow enough for him to expect his push to be profitable with AA.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

That should explain why it isnt a good reason to push. I should change
what I said before, a push with AA pf is always profitable, in this situation I dont think it is most profitable.

If I am 3betting with SCs, mid-high PPs, broadway cards and sometimes random hands, why push against my 3bet when Im calling that with only a tiny portion of my range? If you are against a person that will only 3bet QQ+,AK or whatever and will never fold to a push then yea, thats fine.

Let me know when you find a player who is that tight but also cant fold to an overbet push.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

Why would a solid player play AA like this?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

lol, open pushing here as villain in sb with AA is sooooo +ev becuase everybody thinks you wouldnt just push AA like that, and anyway noone can laydown hands preflop at these stakes anyway so just watch them call.
QQ would call here imo on that site, or 3 bet, it wouldnt just shove all in. If this were stars would we even be having thsi conversation? Crypto is hardly donktastic, but easy enough to beat, for this to never be less than KK and nearly always AA.

Originally Posted by aislephive

Why are you judging players by the site they play on? That's just retarded. This is 50nl, people aren't playing so solidly and make a ridiculous amount of mistakes, overcommitting with medium-biggish pairs preflop being one of them. For 100bbs against an unknown player at 6max at 50nl it's practically a sin to fold KK preflop.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

This statement is retarded in so many ways its funny.
1. Its 100nl

Zomg it's 100nl the play is so solid there ..

2. You sound like youve played on one site all your life. Just becuase Party's donktastic fish push less than AA desnt mean it happens at other sites. Have you played on crypto?

Yes one site, UB, Pokerstars, PartyPoker, and now FTP.

3. The game in general isnt as donktastic as it was 6months ago at 100nl, players dont just commit a 100bbs stack with nothing.

So anything that isn't AA/KK is nothing now?

4. If you want to argue that players dont play differently, go play on stars and B2b then go to somewhere like the boss network and tell me those players have the same level of skill becuase i will state now, they do not, nor do they play the same

I never said they don't play differently, but they don't play much different. There are no tough 100nl games and the players make irrational plays all the time. You don't even have a read on the guy, folding here is stupid. You can't be like "well this is the b2b network so this player must have aces where as on party it could be TT+ / AK. Those are poor impractical generalizations.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I thought this was a straight forward fold considering how much of a skill edge we expect to have in this game when the money goes in in other spots...

Originally Posted by Renton

Folding when you have 80% equity in a 200bb pot is a ridiculously huge mistake, and I don't care how big of an edge you have in the game, you aren't leveraging that edge so much that it can overcome a mistake that big.

Considering an unknown's range that he fourbet pushes, you don't have quite 80% pot equity. More like 65-70%. So basically, in folding KK here to an unknown, you are throwing away 120-140 dollars of equity. Thats a fairly big mistake.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

wtf is a fourbet push range? I see AA/KK at 100nl. What other hands are their

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Sometimes i ask myself whether pot equity>reads all the time, because i feel it doesnt.

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Call every time unless you have an excellent read to say otherwise. Why would someone reraise that much with AA? Unless they are utterly retarted.... which is a possibility..

But still its a call IMO. I would prob think for 5 seconds call and pray he hasnt got AA