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Camping for monsters vs. Playing for a suckout

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Robert Tiltin'

03-23-2005, 07:13 AM Post subject: Camping for monsters vs. Playing for a suckout

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 53

Ok..

I've really tried mixing up my play after being the Slansky stating hand playing mofo that I was.. I used to play some "weaker" hands in position, so I wasn't super-duper tight but I'd noticed that the people who won big pots from me were when I held a good start, flopped high pair or something and then got sucked out by a flush or 2 pr.

Typically, a raise before the flop and a pretty big flop bet would chase people out, but not always and those odd times cost me pretty heavily sometimes.

I moved to playing more suited connectors and so on and actually going for draws when it's shakey as to whether it was a smart call.. Typically playing pot odds, but pushing it a little bit.

Been making out good doing a mix of both styles.. I wouldn't say I play loose, but certainly looser than I was. The aggression has stepped up a lot, too. When I flop trips or something, I hit the gas hard, not fearing chasing people out, but rather hoping to get someone to call - and Jesus, they do ..

Anyways - It's interesting.. Camping and playing monsters, vs playing a strategic draw (I call it a suckout) .. The frequency of getting monsters AND having them hold up (barring a flopped FH or Nut Flush) seems to be very sparce.. Whereas playing a drawing hand and having it covert from grapes to wine - while having a huge pot seems to be more likely.

I'm sure this has been talked about before, but I have been seeing things in a little different light. Taking a little risk, or maybe even a lot of risk sometimes, instead of waiting for a sure thing - which may not wind up being a sure thing after all the cards hit the table...

How do you feel about this style of play? Especially after getting sucked out on decent hands?

It seems like playing the Slansky starts w/ preflop raises is SOOOO predictable. It's like - "I have AK guys" = 4-5XBB.

Betting on draws early and running when they don't materailize when pushed. Raising any position with suited rags and betting on them. Stuff like that.. I used to call it manical play.. Is it soo manical when you get sucked out from the guy calling preflop 4xBB w/ A4s ??

It's seeming like it's more manical to think that my Slansky G 123 hands are GOLDEN and to be pissed when someone "takes a chance" and hits..

Welp - I dunno if I'm ranting or fishing for affirmation, but either way, I'd like to hear what people think.

Turst me - I stand by the saying of LUCK will lose over time and the good player will prevail - but I'm seeing it as this: The skilled player takes calculated risks and creates opportunity when there may not be. He does not go over his head, but he'll try putting it on the line when situational awareness and numbers are lining up.

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Waggho

03-23-2005, 04:01 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Sweden

Posts: 260

Draws
Get rid of those pot odds and start thinking in implied odds instead. Look at your draws and evaluate their quality. 45 in hand with 679 on board? not very good draw. 9T with JQK on board? Dangerous straight! Two of the same suit on board? Watch out! Is your flush draw not A high? Watch out! Is there a pair on board? Watch out! Thinking like this, you will get a grip of how big chance you will have to make the winning hand. Then look at your opponents. How are they betting? How big is the pot? How big will the pot be? How hidden is your hand? Will they fold to any bet? Sometimes you may have implied odds to call with a gutshot, if the pot is big and it´s likely that you will have the nuts. Look at your opponent´s stack. How big is it? Is he willing to put the whole of it in the middle? Is he pot commited?

Position
Try raising any hand from the button. A standard raise of 4xbb or something. If everone folds, fine. You earned a buck or two. I someone reraises you, fold. If someone calls and then bets on pot, fold unless of course you hit something. If it´s checked to you, bet like you hit top pair. If not everyone has folded by then, slow down and check/fold. You will be surprised how often you can take the pot home without any competition at all. Another good thing is that you know very good where you stand almost everytime: you (probably) have a bad hand. So if anyone shows any aggression, they can´t take a dollar more from you because you will fold.

/Wag
______________________________________
Goal: $5,000 winnings in November 2005
Mission accomplished! 9/17 2005

storm75m

03-23-2005, 04:47 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston

Posts: 401

storm75m is an unknown quantity at this point

i personally think predictability sucks, and you're moving on the right track, just stay at your comfort level. And you must have much better post-flop play, and know when to fold. I play 6 max exclusively, and Slanksy's stuff is straight out the window. Everything so SOOO situational, I may raise with 35o one hand, and fold QQ the next...

"Anyone can memorize a play book, but the truly great players can improvise at the line of scrimmage."

Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.

LockLow34

03-23-2005, 04:53 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Ashburn, VA

Posts: 266

What I've learned from books and playing is that it's vital that you be able to win a HUGE pot if you hit your hand. In position with small connectors (suited or not) I've called 2x or 3x bb bets from players I was sure had AA or KK in hopes of busting them.

One hand I remember I had

8

and called a decent raise from a big stack. Flop came

Q

He bet and I pushed all in (we're about even money at that point). Of course he called and I took it down when my flush hit.

Basically in NL you have one goal: to get your opponent's stack. The game is to figure out how. Some players can't release AK when it doesn't hit after the flop. Others can't release big pairs. Others chase weak flush draws. Get them into positions where you're getting the right odds based on their stack size and you can't go broke. Make them chase you.

"How deep is the money?" - Fnord

m3laNcholy

03-24-2005, 05:40 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 232

Quote:

Originally Posted by storm75m

i personally think predictability sucks,

Yeah its sooooo classic when I call a raise with either medium/small pair or medium suited connector and re-raise all in on a flop of lower than 10 or sth (if I hit a pair in the case of the suited connectors) just because the raiser has "I have AK/AQ" written on his forehead...

poker2006

03-24-2005, 11:20 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 20

I agree you have to mix it up, but going all in with a flush draw is a beginner (fish) play. You usually want to put all your money when you have the better hand!
I'll call you every time with top pair in that situation, and people have drawn out on me but I got the money back with interest fairly soon

The best strategy has to be a mix. Raise some hand for deception, push with the better hand.
One thing is clear, you will not loose with solid poker over a reasonable amount of time. Might make less money, but will loose less money.

--poker2006
My goal is to get better every day. The money will come by itself.

Sykedupp

03-25-2005, 06:20 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Posts: 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker2006

if you were talking about what locklow said, he was on a STRAIGHT flush draw... he actually was the favourite to win the hand (against AA) with a 60% chance (roughly) to hit something.... that play is not fishy, and is +EV in the long run (provided you have strong reads the opponent has AA/KK/QQ)

-Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by soupie

That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.

LockLow34

03-25-2005, 12:38 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Ashburn, VA

Posts: 266

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sykedupp

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker2006

Exactly. That's the whole point of playing suited connectors, to flop a draw where you're the favorite against a big pair when you both have deep money. The situations are rare but when they come up you have to make the most of them.

"How deep is the money?" - Fnord

03-25-2005, 04:23 PM

#9 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

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