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09-05-2005, 10:30 PM
Post subject: Calling up to 8xBB preflop with any pocket pair in ring
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#1 (permalink)
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Is +EV?
Discuss.
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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Depends on the player.
A donkey that is willing to go all in with JJ on the flop of A87 rainbow with his JJ?.... sure...
Anything like a good player?
Nope.
Tight player?
Nope.
Calling station? (unless they will call an all in with any pair.)
Nope
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edudlive
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 100NL 6max
Posts: 623
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I usually will only call up to 4xBB with any PP 55+ (I usually don't have 22-44 in the right position to even still be holding them when the raise takes place)
People will always pay you off with their TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA when you hit your set...so unless you go on a streak with no sets...it should be very +EV
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(16:02:25) Fleece: u think ur liked now?
(16:02:31) Fleece: that u got real life friends
(16:02:48) Fleece: enjoy ur real life friends
(16:03:08) Fleece: ur e-friends dont wanna knwo about u anymore
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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Quote:
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People will always pay you off with their TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA when you hit your set
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I wish they did..
But they dont pay you off nearly that often IMO.
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edudlive
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 100NL 6max
Posts: 623
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Laeelin
Quote:
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People will always pay you off with their TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA when you hit your set
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I wish they did..
But they dont pay you off nearly that often IMO. |
Well I play 10 and 25NL, so I can't speak for anyone else 
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(16:02:25) Fleece: u think ur liked now?
(16:02:31) Fleece: that u got real life friends
(16:02:48) Fleece: enjoy ur real life friends
(16:03:08) Fleece: ur e-friends dont wanna knwo about u anymore
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Laeelin
Quote:
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People will always pay you off with their TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA when you hit your set
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I wish they did..
But they dont pay you off nearly that often IMO. |
Just another sign of the beginning of the end.
"100 bb stacks on party wont turn it into a rockfest, people will still pay you off with QQ everytime." They said.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Like Laeelin said, 8BBs is too much to be regularly calling with small-medium PP in most cases. Unless you're playing $50 NL or below, decent players simply won't pay you off often enough to make this +EV. Also, unless there is considerable action in front of the raiser, 8BBs is a very large raise pre-flop. I think a raise this large would be more likely to be a strong yet vulnerable hand such as KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AKo... than it is AA. It's much harder to win a big pot off of someone that misses with AK and you hit a set than it is with someone that has AA.
Regardless of all of that, the absolute first thing you have to do in this situation is consider stack sizes. Even if you are 100% positive that your opponent won't lay their hand down, you both have to have greater than 56 BBs for the call to be profitable. Anything less than that and you're -EV [7 out of 8 times you lose 8 BBs (7 x 8 =56 BBs)].
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Only call 8xBB raise if the stacks are 160BB for both players.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I'm not a big math guy, but I can say that on Party my standard preflop raise on 25NL is 8-12xBB. 25¢ blinds, and my standard raise is $2-$3 with any hand I'm raising. I will call that with a pocket pair. Reason being that often you're against an unmade hand, and 55 can win unimproved.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Don't you get everyone folding to you? I only play $25NL and £25NL and on none of the sites I regularly play would I bet more than 6xBB pre-flop unless there's a very specific reason to do so (with AA after 7 limpers, say)
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
Don't you get everyone folding to you? I only play $25NL and £25NL and on none of the sites I regularly play would I bet more than 6xBB pre-flop unless there's a very specific reason to do so (with AA after 7 limpers, say)
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At first you get folds, until they realize it's your standard raise. Set the trend and create an action atmosphere. Before you know it others at the table will start doing the same thing.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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DimitriT
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
Don't you get everyone folding to you? I only play $25NL and £25NL and on none of the sites I regularly play would I bet more than 6xBB pre-flop unless there's a very specific reason to do so (with AA after 7 limpers, say)
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At first you get folds, until they realize it's your standard raise. Set the trend and create an action atmosphere. Before you know it others at the table will start doing the same thing. |
Yes, but then what do you do when you want a cheap flop. How do you play your 77 or QJs from MP? Do you raise that 8BB. An observant opponent will see you limp with that, put you on a range of hands and raise you off the pot. OTOH, if you are using a mix of 3-5x bets, you can play hands like QJs from MP and raise them for fold equity some percentage of the time. Betting 8-12x means that you are risking way too much for fold equity. Am I wrong on this?
My standard line on both stars and absolute is a 3-5x depending on position and # of opps. I also vary it a little bit based on hand strength (the stronger the hand, the weaker the PFR). If I don't get respect for 4-5x PFR, I find another table. I want to get some fold equity out of my "trouble" hands so I can play them for profit on a tight/weak table.
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PokerPatNEU
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 797
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I dont think that the size of the raise relative to the blind is the issue with taking small pocket pairs to the flop. It's the size of the smallest of the stacks of the players involved. I will call any raise if its less than 10% of my chips or villains chips, whoever has less, from an aggressive villain. From a tighter villain, 5% because they are harder to destack when they hold QQ/KK/AA and you hit your set.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DimitriT
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
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Originally Posted by biondino
Don't you get everyone folding to you? I only play $25NL and £25NL and on none of the sites I regularly play would I bet more than 6xBB pre-flop unless there's a very specific reason to do so (with AA after 7 limpers, say)
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At first you get folds, until they realize it's your standard raise. Set the trend and create an action atmosphere. Before you know it others at the table will start doing the same thing. |
Yes, but then what do you do when you want a cheap flop. How do you play your 77 or QJs from MP? Do you raise that 8BB. An observant opponent will see you limp with that, put you on a range of hands and raise you off the pot. OTOH, if you are using a mix of 3-5x bets, you can play hands like QJs from MP and raise them for fold equity some percentage of the time. Betting 8-12x means that you are risking way too much for fold equity. Am I wrong on this?
My standard line on both stars and absolute is a 3-5x depending on position and # of opps. I also vary it a little bit based on hand strength (the stronger the hand, the weaker the PFR). If I don't get respect for 4-5x PFR, I find another table. I want to get some fold equity out of my "trouble" hands so I can play them for profit on a tight/weak table. |
It depends on the site.
On Party, you get 100xBB stacks to start, so I'll raise anything to 8xBB if I want to raise preflop. On 25Nl it's $2, and 50NL it's $4. Not too deep at all.
I barely ever see people raising to $1 on party 25NL 25¢ BB anymore. Someone will do it, and it will get reraised to $2 from someone. All raising to 4xBB on there does is give someone an opportunity to isolate you with a representation.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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ekillian
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 235
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I think above all else it depends on the stack size of the guy betting the 8x BB.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Rondavu,
I think raising 8xBB at 25NL only works if you play enough hands. If you have tight hand selection based on position, you probably won't get in enough hands to have this work. If you play 3+ hands an orbit and raise 8xBB then it sounds good. I played on a semi-loose table the other day for 150 plus hands (not many). I only played about 12 hands because I didn't really get cards. I got AQs and TT in LP and QQ in MP and each time I raised $2 and everyone folded. Those were my best hands the whole time. But the point is, 8xBB in volume will work but even the loose players folded to my occasional 8xBB raise.
I only showed down 2 hands and won both. Total profit $11. Slow session but couldn't get the goods to feed the fish.
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Checkways
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 249
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As long as stacks are deep enough to call then call! If you're not getting paid off with your sets, then either you're playing them funny or you're playing a bad game and need to move somewhere else.
If you can't get paid off with a set, then what can you get paid off with?
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Checkways
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 249
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ekillian
I think above all else it depends on the stack size of the guy betting the 8x BB.
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Don't forget your stack size and the number of callers in the hand and their stack sizes too! But online, 8xBB will never scare me off of a pair of ducks unless it's heads up and one of us has a stack size of 60xBB or less. I'd rather have dueces than AQ in that situation.
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Checkways
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 249
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DimitriT
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
Don't you get everyone folding to you? I only play $25NL and £25NL and on none of the sites I regularly play would I bet more than 6xBB pre-flop unless there's a very specific reason to do so (with AA after 7 limpers, say)
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At first you get folds, until they realize it's your standard raise. Set the trend and create an action atmosphere. Before you know it others at the table will start doing the same thing. |
Yes, but then what do you do when you want a cheap flop. How do you play your 77 or QJs from MP? Do you raise that 8BB. An observant opponent will see you limp with that, put you on a range of hands and raise you off the pot. OTOH, if you are using a mix of 3-5x bets, you can play hands like QJs from MP and raise them for fold equity some percentage of the time. Betting 8-12x means that you are risking way too much for fold equity. Am I wrong on this?
My standard line on both stars and absolute is a 3-5x depending on position and # of opps. I also vary it a little bit based on hand strength (the stronger the hand, the weaker the PFR). If I don't get respect for 4-5x PFR, I find another table. I want to get some fold equity out of my "trouble" hands so I can play them for profit on a tight/weak table. |
I've seen people play like the way Rondavu is talking about. They generally don't play many hands, and when they do, they OVERRAISE. If you mix it up enough, you get paid off handsomely. The first few times you overraise, peolpe fold. After a while, they start thinking. Damn, what the hell is this guy doing? And they start calling you with mediocre stuff. Then they miss the flop and you do a big cont bet and take it down. After a while, people start getting annoyed with you and you get ACTION. Never done it before, but I've seen it work.
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