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Calling with a gutshot draw right here?

  
 
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Stagon
Old 03-27-2007, 08:37 PM     Post subject: Calling with a gutshot draw right here? #1 (permalink)  

Join Date: Mar 2007
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Stagon
PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, K.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) A, 9, J (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 raises, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Getting 8.5:1 for a gutshot draw (don´t see anything else valuable here) is it right to call? I smelled some rather good implied odds here, else I would have folded (I hate chasing gutshots).
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Fortune 500
Old 03-28-2007, 01:04 AM #2 (permalink)  
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What I'm not sure of: Is this a limit or NL game. As a pure math call, it's not bad.

I'd much rather be closing out the betting here. You've got the inital bettor yet to act, and may be facing yet another raise.

Far less dangerous in a limit game than a NL game.

Get your own operations graphic here:
http://operations.talkingapes.com
 
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Chopper
Old 03-28-2007, 02:06 AM #3 (permalink)  
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i certainly dont mind the chase for the flop. even if you get raised again here, you will have even better odds to call. and, it "sweetens the pot" a bit for the turn. i would, however, like to see at least one diamond for the backdoor flush, too. you cannot be confident in your K or Q as a 2nd pair, if it hits the turn, but it would open up a few more outs to two pair and trips in addition to your gutshot.

and, if you hit your gutshot here, you may bring in a OE draw to your nut straight. that should pay handsomely, in an already decent sized pot.

imo, with no reads, those are the things to think about. but, it would sure help if you had the reads to be confident you would get paid off nicely if you hit. or, that a villain would bet cbet/raise with a missed hand on an A board.

but w/o those "psuedo-implied" reads, i wouldnt take the river card once the betting gets cut in half for more than one single bet, and me closing any action (which appears unlikely).

in sum, i'd peel one off here, and look to get lucky.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Stagon
Old 03-28-2007, 04:29 AM #4 (permalink)  

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Stagon
Thank you both for your replies. And , yes, it´s a limit hand.

Since I´m a beginner in HE my thoughts went like, if they bet and raise the flop I´m sure that at least one of them will bet on the turn as worst case (maybe bet/raise like in the flop again, which would even be better if I hit the turn). I planned to fold should I miss the turn or call given the right odds (no pseudo-implied something included this time ).
Definitely nothing sophisticated, I know.

My problem here is that HE gives me a lot of negative enhancement esp. in draw situations meaning that since I miss the majority of my draws I tend to think in terms of "saving bets" rather then things like pot equity and the like (I mean all the "aggressive" stuff that costs you money now but makes you money in the long run).

Without getting into detail, this particular hand gave me lots of POSITIVE enhancement, so I posted it to see if I was just a lucky donk or if my move was justified. Getting 2-0 in my favour I´m content.
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Chopper
Old 03-28-2007, 04:09 PM #5 (permalink)  
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the things to remember in limit, to me are:

1) make your decisions to play a hand or chase a draw BEFORE THE TURN, not after. most of the time you call a turn bet/raise, you are almost always right to call the river, too. again, make your decisions on the flop, not turn.

2) think in terms of: do i need to protect my hand? do i need to build a pot for odds on a later street? and do i need to control the pot and hope my hand holds? if you can keep these in mind, and act accordingly, you should beat most smaller stakes games.

3) when you have a big draw, and multiple players interested: DO NOT BLOW THEM OUT OF THE POT BY TRYING TO BUILD WITH CHECK-RAISES AND 3BETS. take what they ALL will give and be happy when you collect (you can get fancy on the river AFTER you hit). play big draws aggessively oop, and a little more passively in position. you dont spend as much as you think when you miss, and you collect a good bit more when you hit.

just my .02. i am not a fabulous limit player, but i can post a modest win rate at lower stakes, and these are some things i fundamentally do. other stuff will come later. hope that helped.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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