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Calling a bluffer's bluff

  
 
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xpaand
Old 05-11-2009, 08:11 PM     Post subject: Calling a bluffer's bluff #1 (permalink)  
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 He was being overly aggressive and I knew that he was bluffing a lot. He got about a buy-in from me through bluffing two heavier got really sick of it and called his bluff. He was very loose and aggressive and so I knew that I had to out bluff him hard so I shoved with air. Was it an ok decision or really dumb? It'd be great if someone could show me the mathematical/intuitive decision making thoughts, so I can improve my bluffing / bluff calling part of my game.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP1) ($5)
MP2 ($3.03)
CO ($1.49)
Button ($7.43)
SB ($9.88)
BB ($5.10)
UTG ($1.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, 10
1 fold, Hero bets $0.25, 1 fold, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.23, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.25) J, 4, 10 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $0.55, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.55, 1 fold

Turn: ($2.35) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.20, Hero raises to $4.20 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $4.75 | Rake: $0.20
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If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
 
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dranger7070
Old 05-11-2009, 08:15 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Why not just check/call down here and let him bluff his stack into you? There is no need for the overshove since he's only going to call you when he has you beat unless he is INCREDIBLY stupid.

Also, don't even worry about "picking off bluffs" yet. It's really not THAT big of a deal. Just play your hands for value. YOU have to determine the best way to get value vs a particular opponent. Vs this guy, who you say is overly aggressive, just check/call with your hands that hit the flop decently (and this one obv did) and let him bluff off his stack. No need to push him away really. Sure there are two FD's out there now, but I wouldn't really be too concerned about them.
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xpaand
Old 05-11-2009, 08:26 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dranger7070
Why not just check/call down here and let him bluff his stack into you? There is no need for the overshove since he's only going to call you when he has you beat unless he is INCREDIBLY stupid.

Also, don't even worry about "picking off bluffs" yet. It's really not THAT big of a deal. Just play your hands for value. YOU have to determine the best way to get value vs a particular opponent. Vs this guy, who you say is overly aggressive, just check/call with your hands that hit the flop decently (and this one obv did) and let him bluff off his stack. No need to push him away really. Sure there are two FD's out there now, but I wouldn't really be too concerned about them.
Very good point. It was pretty dumb on my part. I was just about to say that I was worried he might have a pair of Jacks and so I wanted to win the pot right away. But if that was the case, I don't think this guy would have folded top pair.
OP: Beginner to Master

If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
 
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Stacks
Old 05-11-2009, 08:45 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Fold preflop. Fold flop. C/f turn.

This is a 5way pot postflop and you have 2nd pair. He may be a bluffer, but this is a terrible spot to bluff.
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ArcadianRock
Old 05-11-2009, 10:03 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Yeah, if you can play the patient game you'll get his stack. Fold preflop.
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Pelion
Old 05-11-2009, 11:59 PM #6 (permalink)  
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You dont have air here. You have second pair. Ignoring all the pot odds and technical stuff for a second, if you think he is bluffing here then you are pretty far ahead of him. If you shove, he will fold. If you just call, he may bet the river again and you can call and win an extra bet from him. If on the other hand youre wrong this time and he has a Jack, set or overpair he will probably call if he plays how you described him.

So, your bluff is bluffing out all of the hands that you are already beating, while getting called by all of the hands (apart from maybe KT, AT) that beat you. I hope you can see why that isnt optimal.
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AFchung
Old 05-12-2009, 06:40 AM #7 (permalink)  
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you should be trying to get to showdown with 2nd pair not bluff out weaker hands
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bigspenda73
Old 05-12-2009, 06:50 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 PF is just so bad when this guy has position on you
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Vinland
Old 05-12-2009, 03:06 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 It kinda looks like your sole purpose in this hand was to get him...not recommended.
And as other have said, you dont need to outbluff the aggro bluffer, let him come to you with shit and let him value town himself. If you never get a hand to stand up with, well thats life.
You got into a multiway pot with a bunch of players and are probably lucky that they had nothing, but as is it was it ended up being a bloated pot that you probably should've avoided pf...
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