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PlayToWin

08-20-2008, 06:13 AM Post subject: To Call or No?

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 606

Against a TAGG villian. Any comments are welcome. TIA.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($11.25)
Hero ($4.55)
MP ($9.90)
CO ($14.75)
Button ($10.40)
SB ($2.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7

, 7

.
Hero calls $0.10, 2 folds, Button calls $0.10, SB completes, BB raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40, SB folds.

Flop: ($1.70) 9

, 7

, T

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.3, Button calls $0.30, BB calls $0.30.

Turn: ($2.60) K

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.2, Button folds, BB calls $1.20.

River: ($5) Q

(2 players)
BB bets $2.7
Hero?

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Deanglow

08-20-2008, 06:15 AM

#2 (permalink)

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if you are talking preflop the answer is no. the river, again no

Ragnar4

08-20-2008, 06:50 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

Hero really needed to get it AI on the turn.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

Stacks

08-20-2008, 06:59 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 2,605

Fold preflop.
Bet at least $1 on the flop. Perferrably $1.20
Shove turn.

bigspenda73

08-20-2008, 07:06 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Stacks

08-20-2008, 07:08 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Forgot to say why it's a fold preflop. You don'thave enough implied odds. You have $4.50 in your stack and you have to call $0.50c to see the flop. That's only ~9:1 implied odds. I believe you make a set on the flop either 8:1 or 9:1. It would seem as though you are getting enough odds, however, that is assuming you get villians entire stack, which isn't always the case. Since you don't always get his whole stack you need to be looking for something like 15:1 or 20:1 before calling preflop with a small-mid pp is a +ev play.

settecba

08-20-2008, 11:28 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

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like everyone said: fold preflop, fold river. Also, consider rebuying so you can play this kind of hands with proper implied odds

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISF

Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.

oskar

08-20-2008, 12:55 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Yup, don't play with less than 50bb. Preferrably buy in for max. If you for some reason want to play short, then you have to adjust your game accordingly.
The bet on the flop is ridiculous. You want to build a pot so you can shove the turn.
As played there is no way I can fold on the river. JJ would have had to raise on the flop unless he's retarded, TJ, KJ would not raise the limpers OOP unless he's retarded - which of course is a real possibility. But the way the hand came down I don't see how you could fold. I think you're more likely up against someone with top or 2 pair who can't read boards than straight.

spoonitnow

08-20-2008, 08:48 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

Yup, don't play with less than 50bb. Preferrably buy in for max. If you for some reason want to play short, then you have to adjust your game accordingly.
The bet on the flop is ridiculous. You want to build a pot so you can shove the turn.
As played there is no way I can fold on the river. JJ would have had to raise on the flop unless he's retarded, TJ, KJ would not raise the limpers OOP unless he's retarded - which of course is a real possibility. But the way the hand came down I don't see how you could fold. I think you're more likely up against someone with top or 2 pair who can't read boards than straight.

I've put in bold the parts of this post that need reconsideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

oskar

08-20-2008, 11:08 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Oh well...
There are a couple of problems I have with this hand. Since the bet on the flop is so ridiculously small it's hard to put the villain on anything... he might as well have AJ. I take back the retard comment, as I realized I will sometimes (if rarely) raise with J high in this position, but I play like a monkey on crack, and the hero specifically said the villain was TAGG

I've seen people bet 2 pair with 4 to a straight on board so often at this level that I personally can't fold it... maybe if I played with the guy for an hour and he played reasonable so far I could lay it down, but without any read at 10NL I'm calling.
But I'm quite confused with the hand. I don't think I layed down more than one set in the last 10k hands I played... but I usually bet it big, so even if someone drew out on me I don't feel too bad because he definitely didn't get the right odds to call.

The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.

sarbox68

08-21-2008, 12:39 AM

#11 (permalink)

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I gotta say I'm with Oskar on this one... for what that's worth... so my two-centers...

1) I don't play short. So I'd raise PF UTG w/ 77 and fold to a 3-bet. I think if you were going to play 77 UTG, you shoulda done the same. As played, you gotta fold 'cause you have no initiative and no set odds.
2) As played pre-flop, you gotta at least $1.40 the flop and shove the turn.

All this being said (...to Oskar's point), I think folding sets to 3-to-a-flush or 4-to-an-inside-straight could be weak-tight at these levels. I'd prolly make a very crying call here. In actual fact, I usually do. This could be AA, AK or KT, QT that thinks my limp-@ss betting is full of sh!t.

Again -- I'm not convinced this isn't a leak. Last night is a perfect example. I lost 60-80bb pots on flopped sets 4 times... 3 of those were where the 3rd flush hit or the straight draw completed on the river. I'm facing a 1/2psb on the River, and just can't see folding... The other loss was to AA spiking an A on the river so nobody gives a sh!t on that one...

Is there a consensus to seriously consider folding to this crap whenever it shows up? I'm consistently getting away from TPTK hands when aggression shows up in this situations (even two-pair), altho' I'm not convinced that line doesn't have me getting bluffed outta sizable pots. But sets...?

PlayToWin

08-21-2008, 04:20 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Yea, I was pissed when villian bet so much preflop, but called anyway hoping to hit the set. Sometimes I fold in these situations, sometimes I call and hope to hit. If I miss the set, I try to have the discipline to fold if things get nasty.

This time I hit. I know the flop bet was ridiculously small. I'm pretty sure that I've read not to slowplay

, but I did it anyway. I was convinced everyone would fold to a healthy bet and that wouldn't get me much money. I was actually trying to induce a bet/bluff so I could reraise. I was surprised that I just got a call.

The turn bet was weaker than usual for me, but again, there wasn't much $$ in at that point. I didn't want a fold.

When the river hit, I knew it was a gamble to call, but couldn't lay it down. A jack would have been right in his starting hand range. Turns out, he had AJ and hit the str8.

I think I need more discipline, among other things. When I fold hand after hand for an hour, playing very tight, it makes it that much tougher to lay down something sweet. I guess that's why I suck at poker. I will ponder this further. Thanks guys.

Stripclubjunkie

08-21-2008, 03:16 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/calling-a-pre-flop-raise-with-the-smaller-pair-t83.html

+1000000

oskar

08-21-2008, 03:38 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Yup, even if you call with more behind, you need to be fairly confident that someone will stack off if you hit your set, otherwise you have to fold preflop. With your stack you really need to fold. If you hit your set, you have to try to get all the money in fast. In this case he had to float with no matter what and see what happens. If you don't think someone will double you up when you hit your set, you should not be setmining. This is why I want to be even deeper than generally suggested when I go setmining. The only time I feel like I only need something like 13x the bet behind is when I have the villains range at AK+

Bet strong. If you don't get called, bet more hands!

This is something that I realized pretty early when I startet to play online. I didn't have much in my account (free money on RedStarPoker when it just opened). I played few hands at 6 max and bet them strong. When I realized that nobody was calling me most of the time, I thought: hey! I could as well bet with anything and try to take it away on the flop. And this is still what I still do when I face weak-tight opponents. I bet more and more of my hands and force them to open up. If they don't, then I just keep stealing and continue with extreme caution when they call. If I can pick up the blinds in 2/3 hands in a ring game with a 3bb bet, then I will bet every single hand. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. You just need to learn to pay attention and adjust.
But even if you continue to play tight, you really have to bet strong when you catch a hand, otherwise you will keep loosing your money. Very slowly, but you will.

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