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Calculating Pot odds and Outs.

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chobo2

08-11-2005, 12:05 AM Post subject: Calculating Pot odds and Outs.

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 3

Hi

I been playing for a couple month now and getting pretty good at texas holdem or well at least against friends and family

I watch poker every week on tv(sometimes a couple times a week).

So Anyways I been working for the last little while on tells and what cards not to play stuff so I bascily got that under control(and getting good at it) but now I want to get better at outs and pot odds.

I am ok at outs like I know if you got 2 suited cards and on the flop come’s 2 suited cards you got right there off the bat 9 outs.

I still would like to get some more practice on outs since you never can get practice.

But what I really want is taking your outs and looking at the pot size and figuring out if it is worth it to go for it mathematically.

But since I am not the greatest at math I would need a site what explains how to do it all then it would need to have maybe some practice sheets so I could do like a 100 different scenarios so I would fully understand how to calculate out the right odds and stuff and I could compare it with my numbers I got to see if I was close to the right odds. Plus it would make me faster at calculating it all. I don’t want to sit there for 10mins trying to figure something out.

Also do you calculate your pots odds differently whether you’re playing limit or no limit. Since if it is I need to know this to since I play both limit and no limit.

Thanks in advance.

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underminedsk

08-11-2005, 04:14 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Reraising you from the button

Posts: 250

Pot odds are easy to do...and they are exactly the same for limit and no limit:

basically, to do pot odds you have to compare the amount you must call to the amount that is in the pot. For example:
The pot is $6
The flop comes, and some guy bets $3
Now the pot is $6 + $3 = $9 total
so since you have to call $3 to win a total of a $9 pot, you are said to have 1:3 pot odds. This means, in order to call his bet in this situation you need to be fairly sure your cards will win the hand one out of every three times. Follow so far?

Now how does this apply your flush and straight draws?
First we assume that if you have a straight or flush by the river, it will indeed be the best hand, and you will take down the pot. (this is usually the case that a straight or flush will be the best hand)
I Since you said you dont want to get into fancy math, I wont bore you to death with the details of calculating the chance to get a certain card, but here is a quick formula you can use to calcluate what kinds of odds certain things get:

(your # of outs ) x 4 = approximately the percent chance you will hit one of your outs on the turn or river.

So this means, in your example where you have two suited cards and two more of that suit come out on the flop, you have exactly 9 outs to improve to a flush:
so 9 x 4 = 36 which means you have ~36% chance of catching a flush on the turn or river.

Now how do we take this and apply this back to pot odds?
Taking your example, since you have ~36% chance of hitting a flush, you should only call flop bets if the bet is <36% of the pot. Of course this math is also hard to do, so for convience sake we will just round 36% down to 33.33% and call it an even 1/3rd, or 1:3 pot odds. So you should only call flop bets if your call amounts to less than 1/3rd of what is already in the pot, including what he bet. This means that in the example above, where you had to call a $3 bet into a $9, you would indeed just barely be getting proper odds to draw out to a flush.

Is this clear, or am I just making your more confused?
If you want to give this stuff a shot, here is a test for you. Post below and tell me what kind of pot odds you need to call a flop bet with
A) an open ended straight draw?
B) A gutshot (inside) straight draw?
C) A pocket pair looking to improve to a set?
D) Two live over cards looking to hit top pair?

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chobo2

08-11-2005, 04:35 AM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 3

It is starting to make more sence.

I found out how to do odds pretty easy and it was the way you mentioned. I hear it not bad in accuracy about 2-3% difference.

to figure out for the turn you mulitply by 4 and if you want to know what the odds for the river are you multiply it by 2.

It seems to be a sweet method.

Now with pots odds I follow you and how to do it but I wondering is there away I can keep everything in % format? because I simply hate working in fractions and switching/converting it around.

Like I like math it is nice The thing is I am not just that great at it espically when it comes to mental math. If I got to write it all by hand it would be so much better but of course in a live game I would look funny plus might give some insight into how I play.

So trying to find out how to do it nice and simple and if possible in % not fractions. If there is no way you can do it then I guess I going to have to brush up on fractions again and start doing it a 100 times till I can covert the percents really fast.

TLR

08-11-2005, 06:59 AM

#4 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 5,007

TLR is an unknown quantity at this point

% and fractions are interchangable, work with whatever is comfertable for you.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/chart_pot_odds.html has a table of all the pot odds you need.

One thing to remember when you count outs is to remember that there are 'tainted' outs that will complete your hand but will complete sombody to a better hand.

For example you hold KsQd on a board of 3h,10h,Jc.
You have 8 outs to complete your hand, but the 2 heart outs may give somebody a flush, so they are tainted.

People usually count tainted outs as 1/2 an out or not counting them at all

chobo2

08-11-2005, 10:31 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 3

Ok I did those questions thing. I not sure if there right or how you wanted it.

A) right odds(32% in outs)
B) Not right Pot odds 16%
C) Not right Pot odds 8%
D) right odds (32% in outs)

thirteen

08-12-2005, 01:07 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 235

Quote:

Originally Posted by underminedsk

Please correct me if I'm wrong(i'm still new to using pot odds myself), but according to someone like sklansky, this is only the correct way to decide if you want to take one more card (4th street in this case) to the draw. If you want to see your true pot odds to draw out this hand, you need to account for a bet on the turn and the river, not just the bet or possible raise on the flop.

nomofoshobro

08-12-2005, 02:47 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Location: HOG HEAVEN

Posts: 130

i believe you are getting into implied odds now.

Ltrain

08-12-2005, 05:29 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

Many beginner books on hold 'em are very good at explaining and introducing how to calculate odds (I used Ken Warren's book) but for a quick reference in the heat of battle.

Figure out how many cards could hit on the turn or river that would give you a hand to beat the highest reasonable hand from the board, depending upon your read of the other hands.

For the turn or a one card river, multiply the number of outs times 2.5. (This is not exact but close enough with implied odds and easy to use).
For two cards, multiply the number of outs times 5.

When you get the number you can calculate if a call is in order. (ex. 7 outs x 5 = 35%. for you to improve on the turn or river if taking two cards; you need about 1 to 3 on your money to call).

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

bluedevil907

08-12-2005, 09:12 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 146

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ltrain

5 gives you numbers that are wayy too high, so 2/4 are definately the ones to stick with.

As for the implied odds, they're just as important in my opinion because calling 1/3 odds on the turn but folding before the river basically negates the odds you counted on for the second card. Therefore, unless you're going AI, you need to look at the turn and river seperately and evalutate how the hand will play out. I just recently discovered that I had been overvaluing my draws due to this simple oversight.

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