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C-Betting at microstakes?

  
 
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grnydrowave2
Old 09-27-2007, 06:06 AM     Post subject: C-Betting at microstakes? #1 (permalink)  
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It seems like this hardly ever works, especially out of position. I suspect that it is a huge leak for me. The problem is, abandoning the C-Bet would make alot of decisions very difficult. Why raise AK utg when I'm probably going to miss and c/f? Raising preflop without the intention of C-Betting is -EV, but doing so WITH the intention of C-Betting is also -EV if I have very little fold equity, correct? But limping or folding such a hand would be ridiculous as well.

Perhaps I'm not firing enough 2nd barrells, or perhaps I'm C-Betting too often or against the wrong opponents. I'm thoroughly confused with the issue. I wish I could filter my PT database and look through every hand I raised preflop and C-Bet. Perhaps then I could see what I'm doing wrong.
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Taxi
Old 09-27-2007, 08:01 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I'm pretty sure you can filter this, I havent got PT infront of me but ill give it a try.
On the General Info tab, click on filters. Then you select "Raise first in", then under "first action after a pre flop raise", select bet. Dont forget to select "not a blind". You can also select how you do vs one opp, and in multiway pots (maybe your cbettig into too many opps??)
If you click on more detail on the General Info tab too (turn filters off - although I'm not sure it makes a difference) you can see the % you cbet (action after a pre flop raise), although I'm not sure what is optimal here, mines at ~75% IIRC ($50NL)
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grnydrowave2
Old 09-27-2007, 09:12 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Thank you, Taxi! I filtered it it all kinds of different ways, raised first in, any raise, I tried excluding AA-QQ, etc. No matter how you slice it, C-Betting has actually been very profitable for me. Perhaps my concerns stemmed from a pessimistic paradigm affect. My last few thousand hands were break even and alot of my C-Bets were meeting resistance. Short term stuff I guess.

My actions after a PFR are 71% bet, 7% raise, 13% check, 4% call, 3% fold. I'm really not sure what numbers are optimal either... that seems a tad overaggressive, but it's been profitable.
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jyms
Old 09-27-2007, 05:15 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxi
I'm pretty sure you can filter this, I havent got PT infront of me but ill give it a try.
On the General Info tab, click on filters. Then you select "Raise first in", then under "first action after a pre flop raise", select bet. Dont forget to select "not a blind". You can also select how you do vs one opp, and in multiway pots (maybe your cbettig into too many opps??)
If you click on more detail on the General Info tab too (turn filters off - although I'm not sure it makes a difference) you can see the % you cbet (action after a pre flop raise), although I'm not sure what is optimal here, mines at ~75% IIRC ($50NL)
It is all here. check out this tutorial on analyzing play in PT.
How to use P0ker Tracker
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sarbox68
Old 09-27-2007, 11:34 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I've had some bad sessions due to this as well. C-betting OOP w/ OCs that miss the board, getting called, missing the turn, wondering whether to dub-barrel, checking and then getting bet into hard and trying to figure do I really wanna keep this guy honest with nothing but air...

Based on advice from these boards, I've def dialed back my c-bets where I miss. Will still do it but only selectively. Will still PFR as usual, but on a tot missed flop have tightened up considerably. The result has been positive for me based on my PT stats.

One thing that has helped a TON... I know some of the folks here don't like newbies (like me) using HUDs at micro. However, I've added the Fold-to-Cbet % state to my PA HUD and has helped enormously. Instead of having to pay each session to learn who will fold and who won't, I can let history teach. I can then target my air Cbets more confidently against the 80+% fold folks and stay away from those that are showing 60% or less.
 
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grnydrowave2
Old 09-28-2007, 09:15 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarbox68
One thing that has helped a TON... I know some of the folks here don't like newbies (like me) using HUDs at micro. However, I've added the Fold-to-Cbet % state to my PA HUD and has helped enormously. Instead of having to pay each session to learn who will fold and who won't, I can let history teach. I can then target my air Cbets more confidently against the 80+% fold folks and stay away from those that are showing 60% or less.
Haha. Part of the reason I made this thread was my selective memory, where people with 80% Fold To C-Bet stats were calling me down.
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Chopper
Old 09-28-2007, 01:25 PM #7 (permalink)  
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the truth, imo, is...you are cbetting way too much. your raises are not getting any respect. tone it down to 40-50%. and mix in some c/r's when oop. theres nothing like c/ring the flop on an A high dry flop when the donkey takes the bait.

try to watch the specific table you are playing. if your cbets are getting called/raised, then start c/ring when you hit a flop, or dont cbet when you miss. or 2 barrel scary cards on the turn.

theres nothing that states you MUST cbet after you raise pf. in fact, if i find someone that looks to be cbetting a lot, i find them in PT...if they are over 55%, i raise them everytime they bet the flop. everytime. and, it should go w/o saying that i need more than 4 hands of history on them to start raising their cbets.

and, yes, position matters...as does the number of players your are betting into. 3+ players, i dont cbet but rarely. oop, i dont want 2 players in there with me. however, if i hit the flop oop, and i have a couple players...its a good time for the c/r....but not everytime.
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euphoricism
Old 09-28-2007, 01:56 PM #8 (permalink)  
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At 25nl here were my cbet criteria:

If its HU and I have position:
I cbet close to 100% of the time.
I bet most turns, as long as I have any piece/any respectable draw.

If its HU and I do not have position:
Cbet close to 100% of the time
Check/fold most turns if called, without significant (8+ out) redraws which I probably bet/call or check/raise.

In position, NOT HU: Don't cbet without piece of the flop (second pair or better, strong draw). On those that I do cbet, I check through most turns unless I improve and then re-evaluate on river.

Out of position, not HU: Don't cbet much at all. Play very passively, looking to get to showdown as cheap as possible, even with TPTK type hands which appear strong. I'm a total pussy OOP.


This will get you pretty far. Granted you'll need a tight enough image. My vpip is rarely above 16%, so I'm given credit for a lot of hands I never have.
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sarbox68
Old 09-28-2007, 06:33 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Thanks Euph! A nice add to my c-bet notes...
 
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swiggidy
Old 09-28-2007, 06:40 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 good post euph, I play pretty much the same way.

I'm pretty sure it confuses your opponents (at low/micro stakes) who only pay a little bit of attention because you're sometimes playing strong hands passively and sometimes aggressively. But they don't make the connection.
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Chopper
Old 09-28-2007, 08:21 PM #11 (permalink)  
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i wanted to show this hand because it happened today, right after i read this thread. and, it goes directly against euph's advice, which i like, fwiw.

i assume this is what he means by "OOP, not HU...i dont cbet much at all." i will add that i almost NEVER cbet in this situation.

however, here, villain on my left was weak/tight. he was folding to lots of cbets. the other villains were in a constant pissing match with each other and appeared LAGgy. so, when they checked to me from ep, i felt i had to fire, if i wanted any chance at winning the pot. just so happened that the K hit the turn, and i prolly had the best of it now (AA/KK/AK would either not be around anymore or would have RRed me preflop with those idiot LAGs.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($6.90)
SB ($7.85)
BB ($30.05)
Hero ($10.25)
MP ($1.70)
CO ($8.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with , .
Hero raises to $0.4, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40, SB calls $0.35, BB calls $0.30.

Flop: ($2) , , (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.7, CO calls $1.70, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($5.40) (2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO folds.

CO said he had JJ.

Final Pot: $5.40

my questions, though, are...

1) would you have 2 barreled the K even if you didnt have it here?
2) if i am villain, and have JJ here, shouldnt i raise Hero's lead? meaning, should i note this guy as "weak/tight?"

i ask #2 because i'm afraid i am weak/tight. i wouldnt raise with JJ here, and prolly should. i would want QQ+ or the 4 to raise the cbettor. is that terrible?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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euphoricism
Old 09-28-2007, 09:01 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Aye I dont cbet there. I c/f there a lot. I c/c sometimes, depending on who bets.

Thing with that board is no one will fold any piece unless a scary card comes. 55+ calls that flop and re-evals, you'll also get floated a lot by donkeys who think they can rep the four (and more donkeys that somehow always *have* the fucking four ;p)

So yeah, just c/f.

If I was villain, yeah I'd probably raise you on the flop. But even if he does -- do you believe him? Do you put him on something like 77, and will they pay you if you hit your 6 outter? Or maybe he by some donkey miracle has the four...

Ok I'll stop rambling. Summary, yeah.. I just let these go, more for my own sanity. Pot is small, I dont have squat, multiple opponents of which its likely at least one of them has some pocket pair they won't fold... yech.
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will641
Old 09-29-2007, 02:03 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 the biggest thing is don't c-bet in a multi-way pot. i rarely dont c-bet HU, and if its 3 way, then i will most likely bet mid pair.
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Chopper
Old 09-29-2007, 02:53 AM #14 (permalink)  
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kind of what i needed to know, from both sides, thanks euph.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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euphoricism
Old 09-30-2007, 06:20 PM #15 (permalink)  
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relooking at the hand, chopper, i probably c/c the turn and try and get to showdown cheaply without getting blown off my hand.
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Chopper
Old 09-30-2007, 09:17 PM #16 (permalink)  
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maybe this was a lucky read, but it took major cojones for a nit like me to cbet this into 3 others and first to act (really quite stupid, but i dont ever do it and wanted to see how the idiots further around the table would react)...i figured they would view this as huge sign of strength (not that they're paying any attention). i figured the only things that call are overpairs and the 7, which i can blow out later, or the 4. everything else folds. when i got called, i thought, "well, i'm done." then, the K hit, and i stopped and reevaluated, "i prolly need to bet again, it may be viewed as a 2 barrel by mid pockets...KK and AA would have RRed pf... AK is splitting and prolly wouldnt have called the flop bet...so this is likely good, and will likely get called by mid pockets and the 7... please, god, dont let him have the 4....." when he said he had JJ, i couldnt believe he dropped it. thought he would think i was still cbetting the "scare card."
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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