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dev
Old 04-22-2006, 07:32 PM     Post subject: c-bets oop #1 (permalink)  
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Does it make sense to just not c-bet oop?

I get burned when I don't have the heart to send out the second barrel into calling-station infested limits.
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Ebene
Old 04-22-2006, 07:44 PM #2 (permalink)  

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Cbetting oop will usually be profitable w/ 1-2 players on a lot of flops, because if everyone missed then the pot will often go to the first person to show aggro. My second barrels have been losing me money lately, so I think those should really be reserved for situations where you've got a good read.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with checking on the flop and if it checks through making your cbet on the turn. This has been pretty effective for me lately.
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martindcx1e
Old 04-22-2006, 08:13 PM     Post subject: Re: c-bets oop #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dev
Does it make sense to just not c-bet oop?

I get burned when I don't have the heart to send out the second barrel into calling-station infested limits.
Ya I've been re-thinking my c-betting lately. I've begun to stop doing it so much on rag flops unless I have a read that villain never puts up a fight w/o a hand.
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Renton
Old 04-22-2006, 11:49 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I c-bet a lot. Probably about 75% of the time in heads up action. It works for me.

What I think a lot of people have trouble with is the size. I have seen people who pot it every time. That isn't profitable, its very very expensive, and it has to work a very large percentage of the time to BE profitable. I usually bet 1/2-2/3 of the pot depending on if there are apparent draws (if there are, I often wouldn't even bet).
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GatorJH
Old 04-23-2006, 03:25 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I c-bet a lot. Probably about 75% of the time in heads up action.
That is the key, C-bets work best against one or, at the most, two players. Barring a read, against one player I will C-bet approx. 75% of the time, but that drops to 50% or less against 2 players and rarely against more than 2.

If I am up against a calling station I will fire again on the turn as that is when they tend to drop without a hand, If I get a call (or raise) there I am done, however in many cases that is where they fold.
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martindcx1e
Old 04-23-2006, 04:43 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I c-bet a lot. Probably about 75% of the time in heads up action. It works for me.

What I think a lot of people have trouble with is the size. I have seen people who pot it every time. That isn't profitable, its very very expensive, and it has to work a very large percentage of the time to BE profitable. I usually bet 1/2-2/3 of the pot depending on if there are apparent draws (if there are, I often wouldn't even bet).
Thanks for sharing Renton. I think that would be my problem - too large a c-bet. So do you bet raggy looking flops alot and also does your frequency of c-betting change as position changes?
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dev
Old 04-23-2006, 05:49 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I think, as last to act in a HU or 3 way flop, I'll bet probably 90% of the time unless I've got a draw likely to complete in one card. Even on the draw I'll bet to get a free card on the river.

OOP, it's another story.
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sandstorm
Old 04-23-2006, 02:32 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Cool, I was just going to make a post with the exact same title. A missed AK/AQ/whatever seems to have cost me a lot of chips when I check the turn and they take it down or I fire the turn and they call. Will post some HHs when I find them.
>3

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it looks like angry boobs
 
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thnwkd
Old 04-23-2006, 03:45 PM     Post subject: Re: c-bets oop #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dev
Does it make sense to just not c-bet oop?

I get burned when I don't have the heart to send out the second barrel into calling-station infested limits.
Having the chk/raise in your game is very important here. your opponents cannot assume because you chkd you don't have a hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I c-bet a lot. Probably about 75% of the time in heads up action. It works for me.

What I think a lot of people have trouble with is the size. I have seen people who pot it every time. That isn't profitable, its very very expensive, and it has to work a very large percentage of the time to BE profitable. I usually bet 1/2-2/3 of the pot depending on if there are apparent draws (if there are, I often wouldn't even bet).
I c-bet 2/3 pot minimum or pot it. I think opp find it easier to float a 1/2 pot c-bet than a full pot (at the buyin i play). It may seem more expensive but it may actually be cheaper because the 2nd barrel is needed less, in my experience.
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Renton
Old 04-23-2006, 06:18 PM     Post subject: Re: c-bets oop #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thnwkd
I c-bet 2/3 pot minimum or pot it. I think opp find it easier to float a 1/2 pot c-bet than a full pot (at the buyin i play). It may seem more expensive but it may actually be cheaper because the 2nd barrel is needed less, in my experience.
What stakes do you play? I play 100nl so I am sure c-bets become more transparent as you get higher.

At 100nl, my c-bets work around 80% of the time at the size I bet. It helps to have a tight image. I run around 15/8. Here's a few c-bets.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($16.25)
Hero ($135.50)
CO ($60.10)
Button ($125.24)
SB ($114.45)
BB ($464.56)
UTG ($89.20)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A, K. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 2 folds, SB (poster) calls $3.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($13) 3, J, T (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $10, SB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $23

I almost never c-bet with 2 opps unless I am in position.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($114.65)
CO ($133.70)
Button ($96.50)
SB ($74.50)
BB ($43.20)
Hero ($101.50)
UTG+1 ($211.89)
MP1 ($98.50)
MP2 ($153.02)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises to $3.5, 5 folds, Button calls $3.50, SB (poster) calls $3, 1 fold.

Flop: ($11.50) 5, 9, 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($11.50) T (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6.5, Button folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: $18

This one is a little questionable. Probably would have worked a little more certainly if I were in first position (it would look like I was going for a checkraise on the flop).


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($144.05)
BB ($90.98)
UTG ($102.45)
Hero ($104)
MP1 ($95.04)
MP2 ($247.88)
MP3 ($35.79)
CO ($103.92)
Button ($48.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, K. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $4.5, 7 folds, UTG calls $3.50.

Flop: ($10.50) 6, 4, 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $6, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $16.50



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($99)
Hero ($117.05)
MP2 ($254.25)
CO ($58.44)
Button ($98.40)
SB ($91.25)
BB ($85.22)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, K. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises to $3.5, 4 folds, BB calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7.50) T, 5, 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4.5, BB folds.

Final Pot: $12



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($87.20)
MP3 ($96.30)
CO ($96)
Button ($79.31)
SB ($81.38)
BB ($113.08)
UTG ($117.10)
UTG+1 ($235.50)
Hero ($220.45)
MP1 ($133.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q, A. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.5, 4 folds, Button calls $3.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($8.50) J, K, J (2 players)
Hero bets $5.5, Button folds.

Final Pot: $14



My favorite thing is to always bet an amount with decimals. Like if the pot is 10$ on the flop, I will bet an amount like 5.5 or 6.5, or if there are draws out I might bet 8.5. Its kinda a psychological thing, like it makes me look precise and calculated.

Also heres a situation that happens alot.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($16.75)
MP1 ($85.70)
MP2 ($96.20)
MP3 ($100.45)
CO ($100)
Button ($75.50)
SB ($60.75)
BB ($98.50)
Hero ($166.66)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K. CO posts a blind of $1. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises to $3.5, 2 folds, MP2 calls $3.50, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls $2.50, 2 folds, BB calls $2.50.

Flop: ($14.50) Q, T, 6 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $7, CO folds, BB calls $7, Hero raises to $27, MP2 folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: $55.50

I flopped a 10 out draw and the betting's weak. Put in a strong semi-bluff checkraise and take it down.



There was a thread recently and people we're arguing as to whether its profitable to reraise with AK preflop. Here's why it is.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($220.14)
CO ($43.85)
Button ($16.50)
SB ($127.90)
Hero ($178.18)
UTG ($20.55)
UTG+1 ($261.64)
UTG+2 ($72.90)
MP1 ($100)
MP2 ($181.21)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
5 folds, MP3 raises to $4, 2 folds, SB (poster) calls $3.50, Hero raises to $14, MP3 folds, SB calls $11.

Flop: ($34) J, 9, 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $20, SB folds.

Final Pot: $54


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($99)
UTG ($121.15)
MP ($80.40)
CO ($68.96)
Button ($126.64)
SB ($97.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG raises to $3, MP calls $3, CO calls $3, Button calls $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $14, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $12.

Flop: ($39.50) 6, 9, J (2 players)
Hero bets $30, Button folds.

Final Pot: $69.50



Also I rarely c-bet loose-passives. I c-bet weaktight-passives almost 100% of the time. I c-bet strong TAgg's about 70% of the time. I c-bet strong sLAgg's rarely. However, whenever I c-bet a good loose player, I will more often bet strong on the turn as well.

Wow this was a long post.
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Renton
Old 04-23-2006, 06:25 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Oh and on position. Somewhat irrelevant I think. You actually appear stronger when you c-bet out of position, and when you c-bet in position you have the dreaded check-minraise to worry about.

I will c-bet somewhat less OOP, but I think the player and the flop texture matter a whole lot more than your position. Position is like a tiebreaker for my decision.
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martindcx1e
Old 04-23-2006, 08:27 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Thanks Renton. I appreciate the AK hands - something I definitely want to work on. You said earlier that if there are apparent draws you often do not c-bet. What kind of situation would that be?
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Renton
Old 04-24-2006, 10:37 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 i am more likely to c-bet a flop of T73 than a flop of T9sX. Not because I am afraid that someone has a piece of the flop, but because if someone does call me, I have no idea where I am at. I could be ahead of a draw with AK high, or behind a pair of T's.
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Miffed22001
Old 04-24-2006, 02:13 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 the problem with c-betting oop is that people dont c/r oop as an alternative option either with or without a hand on either
A48 or T72 flops.
C-betting is hazardous on a board you pretty obviously missed if all you ever do is follow up a pfr with a c-bet with or without the goods and then check/fold the turn. You dont need to be fancy but even fish have 'some' limited brains
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bigboy5540
Old 04-25-2006, 06:36 PM #15 (permalink)  
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the best is when they flat call my c-bet when i have air and then i catch the pair on the turn. so sweet when this happens.
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Renton
Old 04-25-2006, 06:38 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 My favorite thing is when you miss the flop, bet and they minraise, and as you go to click the fold button you poker senses kick in and you realize they have nothing either. You 3 bet strong and take it down.
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bigboy5540
Old 04-25-2006, 08:38 PM #17 (permalink)  
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yea that is nice move. a good move because sometimes they might even have something and still fold when u do it. (such as mid pair)
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