www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

C-bets against bad and aggressive players

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

AKQJ

07-20-2008, 11:45 PM Post subject: C-bets against bad and aggressive players

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 28

I am playing micro limits and I have problems with c-bets. The majority of my opponents are loose and aggressive. They call my preflop raise with a wide range of cards and if the board doesn't have high cards they check-raise my c-bet. If the board has a king or an ace usually they fold. I don't have problems with big overpairs, I stack them very often when I have AA,KK or QQ. The problems are with big card hands, because they usually miss the flop. When I don't make a c-bet they bet almost 100% of the time to try to steal the pot. If I play check-fold I am donating them too many pots. If I play check-call they will continue to bluff me on the turn or on the river. If I try to checkraise them they are able to call me with small pairs, which are favourite against my overcards. What is the best play against these players?

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

JKDS

07-21-2008, 01:10 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

bluff them less, and send them to value town

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

Fnord

07-21-2008, 01:31 AM

#3 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Nothing wrong with 4 card flops.

Then again, I probably have one of the lowest c-bet pecentages on here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ponyboy

07-21-2008, 02:37 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 379

What is your table image? I find I c-bet successfully 75% of the time even with air because I play very tight so they assume I have at least a decent hand.

Also, I find if someone calls me I c-bet the turn again if a nothing card comes up, repping like I have the exact same strong hand, sometimes even raising if they bet into me. Works quite well at micros (at least for me so far). If they call again, then my alarm bells go off and if they raise/reraise me I'm usually done.

Fnord

07-21-2008, 02:44 AM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

What is your table image?

Not terrible, but not that good either. I open a few more hands than most.

That said, I run a bunch of other less transparent lines. Like delayed c-bets and checking top pair behind to induce.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($197.00)
CO ($197.50)
Hero ($297.45)
SB ($209.30)
BB ($241.95)

Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is BTN

2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4

Flop:

($13, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB raises to $36, Hero raises to $80, BB folds

Final Pot: $85

Hero wins $127 ( won +$41 )
BB lost -$42.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

TonyB73

07-21-2008, 04:08 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 414

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

What is your table image?

Not terrible, but not that good either. I open a few more hands than most.

That said, I run a bunch of other less transparent lines. Like delayed c-bets and checking top pair behind to induce.

zeeeboooo

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($197.00)
CO ($197.50)
Hero ($297.45)
SB ($209.30)
BB ($241.95)

Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is BTN

2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4

Flop:

($13, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB raises to $36, Hero raises to $80, BB folds

Final Pot: $85

Hero wins $127 ( won +$41 )
BB lost -$42.00

I must be really weaktight, because I have A LOT of trouble making that 3bet against most players without more potential in my hand.

I can see it is perfectly reasonable for BB to read your line as steal attempt + standard cbet, and in that scenario he could easily just be defending his blind and trying to push you off it on the flop. But thats only one possible scenario, and this has got to work at least 2/3 of the time to be profitable. Are you just playing the odds (ie. he only hits that flop with a Q, a 9 or JT, and that is a very small part of his range)? Or is this play read specific?

I'm also not sure whether this is a 100NL+ scenario that is less applicable at the micros, where if they represent it they usually have it. Are many players at 10NL likely to take villain's line here with air?

Just trying to understand for the benefit of my own game.

And yes, I get pushed off pots reasonably often, unfortunately.

Fnord

07-21-2008, 04:24 AM

#7 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

I'll talk more about what I think about c-betting later, it's a long post and I'm multi-tasking right now.

As for the value of my play there. I think it also feeds into future hands. There is a very good chance that losing this pot will cause him to make incorrect adjustments against my core strategy. While I almost never make pure meta-game plays, I like marginal ones with meta-game value. Also, I thought there was a timing and bet sizing tell there and thought I'd pull the trigger and see if I was right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ponyboy

07-21-2008, 10:57 AM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 379

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

What is your table image?

Not terrible, but not that good either. I open a few more hands than most.

That said, I run a bunch of other less transparent lines. Like delayed c-bets and checking top pair behind to induce.

My question was to the OP...I figure your table image is pretty solid lol. Good point though - but do you think this technique would work at 2nl as well as it works at 200nl?

AKQJ

07-21-2008, 11:19 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyboy

What is your table image? I find I c-bet successfully 75% of the time even with air because I play very tight so they assume I have at least a decent hand.

I also play very tight but if the flop doesn't have an ace,king or queen they don't give me credibility. That's why I stack them very often with an overpair.

Fnord

07-21-2008, 12:25 PM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

At the lowest rung of the poker ladder are folks that play poker in a way that's natural to most people. They limp to see flops, hope to flop the nuts and induce the other guy into going all-in. Mix in some weird lines, optimistic calls and senseless bluffs and there you have it.

Bet, bet, bet, bet, bet and bet some more (tending to fold to aggression) is the answer to this because:
o Most of the time your opponent(s) won't have a hand and you will win the pot.
o They will try to offset folding the flop too often by peeling light, so they set themselves up to profitable follow-through.
o When they get to big money streets often they will chicken out.
o When you have a big hand, you will get called down by lots of weak hands.

Taken to it's highest level, you get a game that probably looks a lot like how Marshall28 plays. However, most people just don't have the sack to be aggressive enough on late streets. If you want to learn how to perfect this gear, contact him.

Once you move up the US online stakes through 100NL, 200NL and into 400NL online (can't speak to bigger games) and perhaps 5/10 to 10/20ish Live you get less opponents who this strategy is ideal against. The poor players see lots of people running it and start to make adjustments (they still suck, but they adjust.) Or they're players who suck, but play a style that isn't so easily run over and ran good and up fast. Then there are the masses of guys probably like you that play like that with various degrees of success (and leaks) and moved up. Finally, the smarter than average bears think about that strategy and have reasonable ways to attack it (particularly people who try to play like that, but aren't really that good at poker.)

That, in a nutshell, is why I play the way I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

AKQJ

07-22-2008, 12:02 AM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 28

Another problem is that many of my bad opponents don't have a full stack of 100BB. When someone with let’s say 50 BB check-raises my CB I can’t try a resteal because he doesn’t have enough money behind and the pot will be too big to make him fold, even if he was bluffing. A solution would be to check instead of making a CB with the intention of raising if he bets. I tried this play and it worked the majority of time.
Also I think it’s +EV to raise the CB of tight players if the flop doesn’t have high cards, especially when you have a shorter stack, like 50 or 60BB. The tight players are more likely to have overcards than overpairs or sets, and they can’t reraise you with air because you are committed after making that raise.

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:33 PM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Beginners Circle

C-bets against bad and aggressive players

Play for FREE and practice your game at...