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BvB 3-bet pot vs preflop agro monkey

  
 
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Outlaw
Old 01-20-2010, 02:53 AM     Post subject: BvB 3-bet pot vs preflop agro monkey #1 (permalink)  
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1000 hands on villain. He has raised 20% of steal attempts, has an 80% c-bet and shoved over my last 4-bet (I folded AQ that time).

Opinions would be appreciated. fyi I actually meant to bet a bit more on the river but friggin table ninja did a slightly smaller amount. It was supposed to be a 52% bet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP ($29.55)
CO ($25.55)
Button ($25.60)
Hero (SB) ($25.10)
BB ($26.20)
UTG ($38.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 9
4 folds, Hero bets $0.75, BB raises to $2.30, Hero calls $1.55

Flop: ($4.60) 10, A, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

Turn: ($11.60) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

River: ($11.60) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $5.60, 1 fold

Total pot: $11.60 | Rake: $0.55
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Micro2Macro
Old 01-20-2010, 03:58 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 fold preflop

as played c/r flop

or I guess donk/shove is kinda cool, no one does that in 3bet pots.

also 4bet/folding AQ is meh, maybe oop it's fine though ip def call
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JKDS
Old 01-20-2010, 03:58 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 idk, calling 3bets oop with hands that like seeing multiple streets against someone likely to bet alot seems bad, especially if he's restealing so light.

edit: damn it, m2m beat me.
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Micro2Macro
Old 01-20-2010, 04:02 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JKDS
idk, calling 3bets oop with hands that like seeing multiple streets against someone likely to bet alot seems bad, especially if he's restealing so light.

edit: damn it, m2m beat me.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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surviva316
Old 01-20-2010, 05:10 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 as laggtardy and exploitable as restealing 20% and cbetting 80% seems, it's actually a lot tougher to exploit than to just call lighter OOP and hope things work out (which is why restealing in bvb against taggs and their wannabes is the friggin nuts)

i'm interested to hear thoughts by players like M2M, but increasing our 4b jam bluffing frequency and/or merging our 4b/getting it in range (i.e. getting it in with AQ+, 88+ for value), depending on how you think he reacts to 4b's and how light he 5b's and so forth seem like better exploitations.

idk, though, getting 3b when we're OOP makes my head hurt.
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Micro2Macro
Old 01-20-2010, 06:11 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surviva316
as laggtardy and exploitable as restealing 20% and cbetting 80% seems, it's actually a lot tougher to exploit than to just call lighter OOP and hope things work out (which is why restealing in bvb against taggs and their wannabes is the friggin nuts)

i'm interested to hear thoughts by players like M2M, but increasing our 4b jam bluffing frequency and/or merging our 4b/getting it in range (i.e. getting it in with AQ+, 88+ for value), depending on how you think he reacts to 4b's and how light he 5b's and so forth seem like better exploitations.

idk, though, getting 3b when we're OOP makes my head hurt.
well when it comes to 4bet jamming, probably just do it with pocket pairs you can't call oop like 44 etc.

yea its unbalanced but he won't make the correct adjustment which I believe is to 3bet you less or make his calling range wider (and either adjustment is good for us I believe...) and if he's 3betting you 20% he's got a ton of shit he won't felt he's just opening himself up to getting owned.

outlaw by just calling then c/c'ing this flop you're doing exactly what he wants you to do and this is why some guys who are mentally retarded still beat small stakes for a decent clip because they just bet alot in the right spots (i.e. spots where you know he's aggressive and you make poor adjustments) and people can't figure out what to do to combat it.

like honestly, when you get the bb vs sb hu or bu vs blinds I bet you could still profit by not looking at your cards and just betting alot.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Outlaw
Old 01-20-2010, 12:24 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the critique guys. This is a sore spot in my game and something I have been working on. I have gotten better at 3-betting against people with high ATS but when its the other way around I get lost.

Before this week I had never (not even once) ever 4-bet bluffed. Now I have done it twice and each time I felt like I was gonna shit myself.

On this my first instinct was to jam preflop as I have at worst 30% equity against his calling range and I think I have enough FE. In fact, unless he adjusts, I think shoving any two here is +ev.

Postflop I screwed the pooch but I had good equity to float and thought I could bluff profitably enough of the time against his weak range. In hindsight I definitely should have jammed the flop. As for leading then jamming I'm not sure he can fold after that? Anything he raises my flop lead with will have to call right? Even just overs would have the right price? Interesting idea though.. I love weird lines. Maybe if we were like 150BBs deep it would work?

I am going to find one or both of those 4-bet hands and post.. I'd like them evaluated.
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Outlaw
Old 01-20-2010, 12:51 PM #8 (permalink)  
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A couple 4-bet bluff hands.

Hand 1:
Villain is winning reg, 15/12/2.5 with 11% raise steal, 82% c-bet and 38% barrel over 1.7k hands.

My ATS is likely 25%-30% on his hud if he is using one.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



saw flop

UTG+1 ($18.75)
MP1 ($16.95)
MP2 ($26)
MP3 ($28.10)
CO ($25)
Hero (Button) ($33.45)
SB ($31.10)
BB ($25)
UTG ($29.15)



Preflop: Hero is Button with K, Q
6 folds, Hero bets $0.75, 1 fold, BB raises to $2.50, Hero raises to $6.50, 1 fold

Total pot: $5.10 | Rake: $0


Hand 2:
Villain is slightly winning reg, 16/16/14.0 with 16% raise steal, 60% ats and 90% fold to 3-bet over 800 hands. (I think the ats and fold to 3-bet are relevant because his game appears to be all preflop)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com



saw flop

MP2 ($25)
MP3 ($11.40)
CO ($27.65)
Hero (Button) ($28.40)
SB ($15.70)
BB ($58.30)
UTG ($32.90)
UTG+1 ($44.10)
MP1 ($26)



Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, A
6 folds, Hero bets $0.75, SB raises to $2.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $28.40 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $4.75 | Rake: $0
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surviva316
Old 01-20-2010, 03:46 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1, both flatting and 4b'ing seem +EV in this spot, in which case i generally prefer flatting and saving your 4bruffing EV's for when you get dealt like A8o. just like $5.75 only gives him 8.5:1 odds to continue OOP*

Hand 2 is perfect. can't say it's a common spot in a cash game, though (stats and stack sizes, etc).

* 100bb's deep IP i'd prollly go 3bb's -> 10bb's -> 22bb's because if he wants to flat something like 54s, thinking he's getting odds, only to c/f most flops, he's playing right into our hands 'cause our hand has very little RIO. 3bb's -> 11bb's -> 23-24bb's seems like a more standard spot.
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