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deacon_bluez
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10-02-2008, 05:01 PM
Post subject: On the button in an unopened pot
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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Is this situation always a raise or fold decision? Or are there times when it is smarter to limp here? (If so, I expect based on reads, what are the exceptions?)
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Sue me if I play too long....
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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I would only limp if I knew one of the blinds loved to punish limpers. Then I would limp with the intent of 3betting a big hand. Again, that would be very rare so I voted A.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Limping here can be very correct.
Provided:
A) Rake is small, a time drop or a % of the pot.
B) The BB/SB call way too much if you raise and play badly post-flop.
Condition A rules out most live games smaller than $5/$10
Condition B rules out most online games
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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r/f is standard
l/3b is tricky
l/c is retarded
l/f is slevin.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by reDZill4
l/c is retarded
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I disagree. We have position and our limp will widen the raise range out of the blinds for most players. Some will flip the spew bit.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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I agree it depends on reads but if you're next to two people who like to punish blind stealing or 3 bet often, I find a new table. Why stay at that one when there are easier fish to fry?
This was one of my leaks - now I almost always raise with even a half decent hand and sometimes with total garbage if I know the blinds will fold.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by reDZill4
l/f is slevin.
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First off, lolz...
Second, depends on what I have and what they do...
a. Mostly raise/fold
b. Mostly raise/3bet w/ premium QQ+, add TT+, AKs,AQs, KQs if they 3bet light against a steal
c. Limp/call lower pockets (usually... so maybe 22-88) if very likely to get 3bet off my set odds
...and then some other stuff too.... 
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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Since I don't value my poker skills too much I never open limp. If you have a hand that you want to play, why not raise it for what it is worth?
If not, we fold 
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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It can be fine to c/c as long as you understand the reasons why you're doing it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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deacon_bluez
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 216
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How about suited connectors or suited gappers? Are these hands we are almost raising in this spot?
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Sue me if I play too long....
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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If I've ever limped the button when folded to me its probably been with a small PP against very bad shortstacks where I feel I can probably build the pot postflop if I happen to hit a set. I cant actually remember doing that, but may have.
I probably should think more about spots where it would be worthwhile doing though.
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Just playing to improve.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Against nits I'd just like to add that raising is almost always going to be the more +EV play.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Against online multi-tablers focusing on quanity over quality I'd just like to add that raising is almost always going to be the more +EV play.
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FYP. Many of that aren't really nits and can change it up on you if you catch them in a bigger game or piss them off enough to turn off the auto-pilot against you.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Against online multi-tablers focusing on quanity over quality I'd just like to add that raising is almost always going to be the more +EV play.
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FYP. Many of that aren't really nits and can change it up on you if you catch them in a bigger game or piss them off enough to turn off the auto-pilot against you. |
subtle point here that is VERY often overlooked.......because we are too busy multi-tabling ourselves. we should strive to be rather inconspicuous in our play against multi-tablers, and loose passives. why make them play better against YOU? that kind of defeats the purpose, imo. kind of like berating a guy in the chat.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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xX zorrito Xx
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wellington, FL
Posts: 300
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can someone explain what a "nit" is?!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
can someone explain what a "nit" is?!
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sarbox
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xX zorrito Xx
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wellington, FL
Posts: 300
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and a sarbox is?..
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
and a sarbox is?..
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scroll up, he already posted in this thread
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
can someone explain what a "nit" is?!
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nevermind the joke...
a "nit" is basically someone who is afraid to put big money in the pot with marginal hands. someone who is a bit afraid to gamble it up...who only gets the money in when ahead.....never behind. they are fairly easy to push off a better hand if you just remain the aggressor.
for future definitions, there is a thread at the top of the beginners forum titled "what does X mean?" it contains tons of answers to these types of questions...and many, many more. its worth skimming through. it will answer a lot of questions for you before you even ask them.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Against online multi-tablers focusing on quanity over quality I'd just like to add that raising is almost always going to be the more +EV play.
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FYP. Many of that aren't really nits and can change it up on you if you catch them in a bigger game or piss them off enough to turn off the auto-pilot against you. |
subtle point here that is VERY often overlooked.......because we are too busy multi-tabling ourselves. we should strive to be rather inconspicuous in our play against multi-tablers, and loose passives. why make them play better against YOU? that kind of defeats the purpose, imo. kind of like berating a guy in the chat. |
Because we adjust better than they do.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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xX zorrito Xx
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wellington, FL
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
and a sarbox is?..
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scroll up, he already posted in this thread |
no further explanation needed...
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Against online multi-tablers focusing on quanity over quality I'd just like to add that raising is almost always going to be the more +EV play.
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FYP. Many of that aren't really nits and can change it up on you if you catch them in a bigger game or piss them off enough to turn off the auto-pilot against you. |
subtle point here that is VERY often overlooked.......because we are too busy multi-tabling ourselves. we should strive to be rather inconspicuous in our play against multi-tablers, and loose passives. why make them play better against YOU? that kind of defeats the purpose, imo. kind of like berating a guy in the chat. |
Because we adjust better than they do. |
right. i get the adjusting part. but, if you have something you can exploit on someone, i dont want them to start thinking about any aspect of their game or mine. making them think about playing, generally makes them play better. thats -EV for us, imo.
i would save intentionally taking someone out of their element for the higher stakes. this forum is for basically $25NL and under. the play there should be bad enough that we dont need to take them off autopilot to score. the leaks are right there for us to take advantage of w/o creating unnecessary workloads.
if i come through unblocked on a slow quarterback, am i going to shout, "here i come, biotch!!" and give him a chance to adjust? or, am i just going to quietly crush his ass leaving him wondering, "what the hell just happened to me?"
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoon
Because we adjust better than they do.
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this is key, but maybe less important at micros, cos of
Quote:
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Originally Posted by chopper
i would save intentionally taking someone out of their element for the higher stakes. the play there should be bad enough that we dont need to take them off autopilot to score. the leaks are right there for us to take advantage of w/o creating unnecessary workloads.
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Zel
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 60
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I'd limp with premium hands. AA QQ KK. Almost any pocket pair down to 77.
Not sure if the experts agree with this, but if it is NL, and the blinds are 1/100th of your chip stack ($100), winning $3 isn't that big of a deal if I can check to a jackpot by hitting a set...
If not I lose a potential of $3, and my $2 commitment, and a a possibility of the opponent trapping me for not playing my hand correctly, but if I'm a solid player, I can dodge this.
If I had KA, QA, etc. I'd raise standard. Almost any other hand I'd raise standard unless it was total garbage.
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If you limp with premium hands you're missing value at the micros
Anyway, the reason we want to raise AA/KK/QQ in the micros is because PEOPLE WILL CALL YOU so you'd rather get that money before they miss the flop
Also, by raising you narrow your opponent's range down so you don't get stacked on a A43 rainbow flop because BB checked his 520
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chuckc3401
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 15
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Raise most halfway decent hands unless the blinds like to punish limpers then limp premium hands and reraise. If the blinds like to punish steal attempts then raise and 4 bet premium hands.
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