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View Poll Results: Bullets or Big Slick suited in NLH?
Bullets are a made hand - give em to me! 30 85.71%
Nah AKs is the better option! 5 14.29%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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Bullets or Big Slick?

  
 
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steelwheel
Old 12-24-2004, 07:32 AM     Post subject: Bullets or Big Slick? #1 (permalink)  
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Curious as to whether you all would prefer Pocket Bullets or suited Big Slick in a No Limit Holdem game.

Myself, I prefer AKs mainly for one reason. With bullets I find it a hard hand to get away from, im sort of fastened to it if you know what I mean.

Whereas with AKs, all Ive got is a drawing hand, so If I get nutthin on the flop, I can easily let go of it. But I find that really hard to do with AA.

Whereas if I was playing Limit I would always prefer the made AA over AKs.

I guess to sum it up, in NL, my entire stack could be in jeopardy of AA getting cracked, whereas with AKs my entire stack will only be in jeopardy if I actually hit something on the flop, otherwise I'll just chuck it away.

BTW, if you cant be bothered you dont need to post a reply but vote in the poll, OR ELSE!

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Old 12-24-2004, 07:38 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I prefer Aces, looking at my PT stats, I'm pulling in more with them. I don't mind losing one or twice with them as I know they are a winning hand over time.
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TylerK
Old 12-24-2004, 07:41 AM #3 (permalink)  
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AA, every time. It's simply the strongest starting hand in holdem. This is proven fact. I *like* AKs, but it's just a worse hand.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
steelwheel
Old 12-24-2004, 07:50 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
AA, every time. It's simply the strongest starting hand in holdem. This is proven fact. I *like* AKs, but it's just a worse hand.
I know that AKs is a worse hand than AA (AA being the best possible, and AKs being about 4th-6ish).
But I seem to win much more constitently with AK than with AA. Not that I win always when I get AKs. What I mean is, whenever I see AK to the river I win about 90-95% of the time (rough estimate), but whenever I see AA till the river I only win three quarters of the time.
(I know that because Ive been keeping a "journal" type thing on AA for boiut 6 months out of interest.)

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Old 12-24-2004, 08:21 AM #5 (permalink)  
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i actually rate AKs as the 3rd best hand after AA and KK

anywho, NL i like AA, limit i like AKs
 
steelwheel
Old 12-24-2004, 08:26 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
anywho, NL i like AA, limit i like AKs
why do you like AKs in limit? I prefer AA in limit cause youve already got something, whereas with AKs your only drawing to something.

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zilch
Old 12-24-2004, 09:10 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I personally think that calling AK just a drawing hand is a bit narrow minded.
There are plent of times that AK will be the best hand.
I like AK in limit one because of the addmittedly good drawing possibilites but also because it will hold up against those with busted flush and straight draws.
Also in limit it is harder to protect AA if people do get pieces of the flop.
Spandrel
Old 12-24-2004, 02:00 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Bullets have a way less chance of being outdrawn by an opponent in heads-up play, so I want those. Being a MATLAB geek, I wrote a program to see calculate how often certain pocket combinations got outdrawn by an opponent in heads-up play. I dealt 1000 hands for my stats.

AA won 87.1% of the time (outdrawn by a random opponent hand 12.9% of the time)
AKs won 68.9% of the time (outdrawn 31.1% of the time)
AKo won 65.9% of the time (outdrawn 34.1% of the time)

I also sub-grouped big opponent hands (all pocket pairs and hands from AK to T8o) to see how that affected the winning percentages.

Against big opponent "betting" hands:

AA won 84.9% of the time
AKs won 60.2% of the time
AKo won 56.9% of the time

There was an obvious dip in the winning percentages overall against betting hands, but the advantage of pocket rockets over big slick was over 20%. If anyone is interested in the entire results, PM me, and I'd be happy to email you the Excel file.
Yeldud
Old 12-24-2004, 03:21 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Bullets without a doubt. If I lose a hand because bullets were cracked and I did not miss the obvious (i.e 4 of a suit on the board not matching one of my aces), there is no shame in it.

I hate playing bick slick, it gets me in more trouble than any other hand. My winning percentage is higher with JJ than big slick.
Old 12-24-2004, 03:58 PM #10 (permalink)  
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elanto
Old 12-24-2004, 04:04 PM #11 (permalink)  
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cmon guys this is a no brainer, with AKs most of the time ull win with a pair (thats if u win at all)..well with AA you already have a pair!! IMO AA is obviously the best hand out of the two


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allLiving
Old 12-24-2004, 04:17 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelwheel
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
anywho, NL i like AA, limit i like AKs
why do you like AKs in limit? I prefer AA in limit cause youve already got something, whereas with AKs your only drawing to something.

steel wheels
You've got this all backwards man... AA is better in NL because you can defend aggressively with bets. AKs is better in Limit because you can catch straights, flushes, etc etc with good pot odds due to limited betting, obviously.

AA >> AKS in NL
AKS >> AA in Limit
Yeldud
Old 12-24-2004, 04:29 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Let us try a different twist on the question.

Pre-flop which one would you go all in with?

Unless I am short stacked in a tourney and short handed, I will never push all in with AKs.
Old 12-24-2004, 04:31 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I like aces. I wonder why?
pokerfanatic
Old 12-24-2004, 04:45 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Statistically starting out AA is the best hand we all know that, but what happens when your behind in the hand AK you have 6 out AA you have 2 (depending but typically), So Both hands have there advantages and disadvantages, I personally voted big slick on accident but I actually like AA much more even though it has lost me some massive pots by getting sucked out over time I know statistically it's a winning hand...
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Old 12-24-2004, 05:11 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelwheel
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
anywho, NL i like AA, limit i like AKs
why do you like AKs in limit? I prefer AA in limit cause youve already got something, whereas with AKs your only drawing to something.

steel wheels
because in NL, you bet big and try to get them all in preflop with pocket aces. with AKs, you're at best a coinflip or badly dominated. when the flop comes, you either try and buy the pot, or you just check fold when you miss.

in limit, when you raise preflop with AA, the pot is so big you generally commit yourself to a showdown, even when it's painfully obvious from the board that you've been outdrawn. yet you still bet or call until the end because your hand is too good to fold and your opponents could have anything.

with AK you can get away from the flop if you don't hit, or if you're in position you get take free cards and free showdowns.

this tends to make AA and AKs win just as much, but you can get away from AK sooner than with AA, saving bets.
 
steelwheel
Old 12-24-2004, 11:01 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allLiving

You've got this all backwards man... AA is better in NL because you can defend aggressively with bets. AKs is better in Limit because you can catch straights, flushes, etc etc with good pot odds due to limited betting, obviously.

AA >> AKS in NL
AKS >> AA in Limit
hmm, never thought of it like that before.
I guess why for me in NL I like AK is because if I dont hit anything on the flop I can chuck it away happily (I wouldnt go AI preflop if I suspected someone has a PP, as I dont like coinflip situtations). But I can hardly ever get away from bullets in NL - I probably just need to learn to lay em down more.

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steelwheel
Old 12-24-2004, 11:09 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
this tends to make AA and AKs win just as much, but you can get away from AK sooner than with AA, saving bets.
Yea thats how I feel about AK in NL, wchich is why I like it because I save myself lots of money. But yea I suppose that is true for limit - its been ages since I played limit.

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steelwheel
Old 12-24-2004, 11:11 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spandrel
Bullets have a way less chance of being outdrawn by an opponent in heads-up play, so I want those. Being a MATLAB geek, I wrote a program to see calculate how often certain pocket combinations got outdrawn by an opponent in heads-up play. I dealt 1000 hands for my stats.

AA won 87.1% of the time (outdrawn by a random opponent hand 12.9% of the time)
AKs won 68.9% of the time (outdrawn 31.1% of the time)
AKo won 65.9% of the time (outdrawn 34.1% of the time)

I also sub-grouped big opponent hands (all pocket pairs and hands from AK to T8o) to see how that affected the winning percentages.

Against big opponent "betting" hands:

AA won 84.9% of the time
AKs won 60.2% of the time
AKo won 56.9% of the time

There was an obvious dip in the winning percentages overall against betting hands, but the advantage of pocket rockets over big slick was over 20%. If anyone is interested in the entire results, PM me, and I'd be happy to email you the Excel file.
weel obviously in heads up play I would pick AA over AK ANYDAY of the week.

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gabe
Old 12-25-2004, 03:03 AM #20 (permalink)  
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i would take AA over AKs in limit everyday
steelwheel
Old 12-25-2004, 05:44 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel
i would take AA over AKs in limit everyday
same here
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elanto
Old 12-25-2004, 06:46 AM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelwheel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel
i would take AA over AKs in limit everyday
same here
hmm in limit i dont know, but in NL yeah ill take aces any freakin day of the week b/c they are much more reliable, and if u make a big bet pre flop youll take out most of the games that will beat you, so if the board comes rags you have them, unless they flopped a set, with AKs if the board comes rags you may still have the best hand butits possible someone has a small PP and has u beat


-anto
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strangebird
Old 12-25-2004, 04:31 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Anyone that would take AK over AA is a fool.
Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants won't help.
-- Calvin and Hobbes
 
jokerindapack
Old 12-25-2004, 06:49 PM #24 (permalink)  
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ACES!!!
"You can't lose what you don't put into the middle, but you can't win much either." - Rounders
 
steelwheel
Old 12-25-2004, 10:42 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strangebird
Anyone that would take AK over AA is a fool.
well I guess doyle brunson is a fool
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Brodie
Old 12-25-2004, 11:05 PM #26 (permalink)  
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For me, PT is saying 69% win rate with KK, 55% for AA and 50% AKs, so I guess I'd have to say I prefer KK right now.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-26-2004, 05:21 PM #27 (permalink)  
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In NL you can put a lot more money in the pot earlier on in a hand. AA is a great hand preflop and on the flop, but usually loses a little edge going into the turn a river. AKs is a good hand but is very board-dependant (a drawing hand) which usually needs all 5 board cards to flourish. So if you can get more money in at earlier stages of a hand, AA is the way to go by far.

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Sykedupp
Old 12-27-2004, 02:02 AM #28 (permalink)  
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its debatable, because although you can get alot of money in pre-flop with AA, you'll either
1) win a small pot with AA or
2) lose a big pot with AA

However with AK, you will either
1) lose a small pot (your board didnt pair, so you dont have TPTK, easy fold, AA would be hard to fold even if it was obvious somebody had 2pair/tripz)
2) win a big pot (vs AQ, AJ, A10, KQ, etc)
*this stuff is taken from super system which i JUST read 4 times *

so its debatable as to which one is better... obviously if your facing an all in preflop, or a huge bet, AA is better... but after the flop.......

-Chris
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That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
 
Old 12-27-2004, 07:22 AM #29 (permalink)  
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Old 12-27-2004, 07:32 AM #30 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
No its not debatable

this is a ridiculous thread I can't believe there is even a conversation about what the better hand is...gimme a fucking break
when I started up this thread I didnt mean "which one is better"
As OBVIOUSLY AA is a bett er hand. But what I meant "which one would you prefer to see" Now that might sound the same as "which one is better" but I dont think it is.

Now call me a dumb idiot who doesnt know a thing about poker if you like, but in NL I prefer to see AKs than AA for two simple reasons as that guy just posted above

1)Youll win more money with it when you get a hand
2)You'll loose less money with it when you miss a hand.

And for those reasons some people prefer to see AK than AA
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Old 12-27-2004, 07:58 AM #31 (permalink)  
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Old 12-27-2004, 09:00 AM #32 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
statistically A/A is the monster favorite
hahha since when did you start believing in numbers again :P
jk
 
steelwheel
Old 12-27-2004, 09:04 AM #33 (permalink)  
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ok I just gotta say this, hypermeagchi - that sheila in your avatar is freakin hot!
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Joke
Old 12-27-2004, 11:38 AM #34 (permalink)  
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I dont know about you but I always make more money with AA..
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Old 12-27-2004, 02:20 PM #35 (permalink)  
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What a great topic, with plenty of hilarious replies.

I think it comes down to this: Whoever thinks AKs is better than AA has got to learn to play their aces better. If you are making more money with big slick than with aces, you should examine your hand histories. AA is not only the better hand statistically, but AA should be making you plenty more ROI in the long run. You've got to know when to dump it. If you are on the river still betting or calling against 2 or more opponents with no help on the board, that is a leak. Learn to fold your rockets at the right times.

That said, I think it is not impossible at micro nl limit tables that maybe AKs is *easier* and *safer* to make a profit on simply because no one respects big preflop raises at micro tables (in my limited 1.5k hands of experience thus far at nl micros on UB). With AA if you throw in a 5xBB raise and still expect 4 or 5 people call, you are throwing money away. (albeit ten cents!) Figure out how to get it down to only 1 or 2 players.

At micro's, a preflop all in might work. At least, it did for me last night. I put in a .10 raise, got re-raised to .20, and I just re-raised all in. You would think the guy would get the point, but nope. He called and showed AJ. lol.

FSA
Corey
Old 12-27-2004, 03:12 PM #36 (permalink)  
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AKs can lose any day when you dont hit an Ace or a King on the board. So therefore your AK can lose to a pair of 2s.

So no AKs is not better hand logically, statistically, nor better in any way shape or form.


Corey
 
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Old 12-27-2004, 05:37 PM #37 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sykedupp
its debatable, because although you can get alot of money in pre-flop with AA, you'll either
1) win a small pot with AA or
2) lose a big pot with AA

However with AK, you will either
1) lose a small pot (your board didnt pair, so you dont have TPTK, easy fold, AA would be hard to fold even if it was obvious somebody had 2pair/tripz)
2) win a big pot (vs AQ, AJ, A10, KQ, etc)
*this stuff is taken from super system which i JUST read 4 times *

so its debatable as to which one is better... obviously if your facing an all in preflop, or a huge bet, AA is better... but after the flop.......

-Chris
I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY DISAGREE KIND SIR.

Here's what you forgot.

1) win a small pot with AA or (WIN A HUGE POT AGAINST HANDS LIKE KK - TT - AK - AQ)

2) lose a big pot with AA (KNOWING THAT YOU MADE THE CORRECT CHOICE PREFLOP PUTTING YOUR CHIPS IN WITH THE BEST HAND)

However with AK, you will either
1) lose a small pot (If you're saying you've never lost a big pot with TPTK or two pair ACES and KINGS vs flopped trips, then what world are you living in?)

(your board didnt pair, so you dont have TPTK, easy fold, AA would be hard to fold even if it was obvious somebody had 2pair/tripz)(Again, this is completely wrong. If you're a good enough player who has the self-control to lay down AA when you have a correct read and think you're beaten, then folding isn't hard at all...

2) win a big pot (vs AQ, AJ, A10, KQ, etc)
*this stuff is taken from super system which i JUST read 4 times *(So? AA can win big pots against AK, AQ AJ KK QQ JJ TT etc....)

Anything else?

AA >> AKs
Old 12-27-2004, 05:49 PM #38 (permalink)  
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Old 12-27-2004, 05:56 PM #39 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucerAttack
AA is not only the better hand statistically, but AA should be making you plenty more ROI in the long run. You've got to know when to dump it. If you are on the river still betting or calling against 2 or more opponents with no help on the board, that is a leak.
in limit, just because they call doesn't mean they have anything. in fact many players routinely call to the river with only bottom pair.

but i agree in NL...if you are ever CALLING with aces, you're probably beat (unless it's calling all in preflop)
 
Corey
Old 12-27-2004, 05:58 PM #40 (permalink)  
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Quote:
its debatable, because although you can get alot of money in pre-flop with AA, you'll either
1) win a small pot with AA or
2) lose a big pot with AA
lol Didnt someone say a quote about that. Some poker player.

I agree with rip. Come sit by me at my table.

Keep in mind steelwheel didnt say AKs vs AA. He just said AKs in nl.

If anyone stated AKs better than AA when they go up against each other wow your sad. Go read a book, quit poker, or bring your bankroll at my table.


Corey
 
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Old 12-27-2004, 06:49 PM #41 (permalink)  
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I remember reading that in Super System (Doyle Brunson)
I built my own poker table... Check It Out
 
Sykedupp
Old 12-27-2004, 07:43 PM #42 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey
Quote:
its debatable, because although you can get alot of money in pre-flop with AA, you'll either
1) win a small pot with AA or
2) lose a big pot with AA
lol Didnt someone say a quote about that. Some poker player.

I agree with rip. Come sit by me at my table.

Keep in mind steelwheel didnt say AKs vs AA. He just said AKs in nl.

If anyone stated AKs better than AA when they go up against each other wow your sad. Go read a book, quit poker, or bring your bankroll at my table.
yes somebody did say that, i quoted it from doyle brunson and SAID that i quoted it from him

and you putting words into my mouth saying that i think AKs is better then AA heads up or against each other is a total lie, i never said anything like that at all.

i think my post was taken the wrong way... i did NOT mean that if somebody puts you all in preflop (assuming you call) and you have AKs and they have AA that you should think you are in any way shape or form the "favourite" (your like a 4.5/1 dog or something, i dunno the #'s)

what i MEANT was, if you see AA preflop, you raise, you get the typical callers (at least the typical callers that i get with the fish i play with at my home games) with 79s, 33, JQo/s, etc, and the flop is, say, 3 8 Q (lets say only the guy with 3's called, he hit his set)... now, you have an overpair... your gonna bet it... you lead out, he re-raises all in... you should know here you're probably beat! but its still a REALLY hard lay-down, if you had AKs in that predicament its an auto-fold (you might not even bet, cause you didnt catch).... THATS why, in MY opinion, you can LOSE alot LESS with AKs

now of course if you're holding rockets and you catch your set your an awsome favourite... but in my personal experience (i dont believe in slowplaying), ill usually bet a reasonable amount [aka: 3/4 of the pot] and get folds all around because nobody else caught anything. Thus winning a fairly small pot... THATS why, in MY opnion, you usually WIN alot LESS with AA

and if you have AKs and an ace comes on the flop, providing nobody caught a set you can win a decent sized pot, because there's one more ace in the deck then if you had AA... so some sucker might have AJ or AQ and you can take most of their money hopefully...
this is the SAME scenario as when nobody catches a set and you have AA on a board like K 10 4... the people with KQ, KJ, and yes... AK (i never said it was a "better" hand then AA), hopefully you can also take those people's money...

and how many times do people bitch about having their aces cracked... "oh my aces got cracked by this, oh my aces got cracked by that"... sure even ive bitched about it a couple of times (been cracked by a 4 card flush and straight flush on 4 aces)
now, how many times do you hear people bitching about having their AKs cracked? not NEARLY as many times because they didnt lose NEARLY as much money (usually only their raise preflop)


that being said, im sorry if i typed my earlier post in a way that some people couldnt really understand... in PURE MONEYMAKING POTENTIAL, AA is way better then AKs... but in my personal experience... and yes i have charts that i keep in a notebook to back me up on this, ill mail em (snail mail) if you want the stats ... but as i was saying, in my personal experience with AA and AK... as far as WINNING THE MOST DOUGH... its pretty close... anyways, you all can call me an idiot now, but please do it in private messaging (ripptyde)... i dont think we need that kind of language n stuff like that

PS: flyingsaucer, i think losing with AA is a leak that 95% of the players here have, including me, its a very hard leak to fix, its hard to fold those AA's... very good point!

PPS: AllLiving: your right, my earlier post was not explained as well as i should've, although i see one error in your reasoning.... Quote: 2) lose a big pot with AA (KNOWING THAT YOU MADE THE CORRECT CHOICE PREFLOP PUTTING YOUR CHIPS IN WITH THE BEST HAND) :End Quote

all i can say is, personally, i wouldnt feel much better about that... i still lost the hand... and my money... all of it... on AA...


-Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
 
Old 12-27-2004, 08:28 PM #43 (permalink)  
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Old 12-27-2004, 08:44 PM #44 (permalink)  
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I prefer many hands over AA, simply because AA is such an attractive hand...Its hard to know when to throw it down
In the poker game of life, women are the fucking rake!
 
a500lbgorilla
Old 12-27-2004, 08:52 PM #45 (permalink)  
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I think that's a better question. Emotionally would you rather play AA or AKs? I think most players will invest more emotionally with AA than AKs and that makes the few loses that you take with AA harder than other general loses. And the times you win with AA it's expected. Where as you know when AKs has gone bust without an expensive show down (It's a flop dependant hand). So the emotional rollercoaster may be easier to handle with AKs. (Just trying to productively move the discussion away from offense and defense.)

-'rilla

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You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Old 12-27-2004, 08:59 PM #46 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I think that's a better question. Emotionally would you rather play AA or AKs? I think most players will invest more emotionally with AA than AKs and that makes the few loses that you take with AA harder than other general loses. And the times you win with AA it's expected. Where as you know when AKs has gone bust without an expensive show down (It's a flop dependant hand). So the emotional rollercoaster may be easier to handle with AKs. (Just trying to productively move the discussion away from offense and defense.)

-'rilla
thats the point i was trying to get across rilla, thx for explaining it in a better way then i did... i dont have a way with words like you do :P lol

-Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
 
a500lbgorilla
Old 12-27-2004, 09:02 PM #47 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyedupp
all beginners have a signature hand, a stupid hand they call raises with even if they know they arent the best hand at the time. For my friend, his hand is J3os... another buddy of mine always plays 69s... My signature hand is AA .
Let's not ignore your signature either, Skyedupp.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
Sykedupp
Old 12-27-2004, 09:06 PM #48 (permalink)  
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eesh... i thought that up on the spot but it just killed me in this thread haha

EDIT: there, better signature

-Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
 
steelwheel
Old 12-27-2004, 10:17 PM #49 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey
Keep in mind steelwheel didnt say AKs vs AA. He just said AKs in nl.

If anyone stated AKs better than AA when they go up against each other wow your sad. Go read a book, quit poker, or bring your bankroll at my table.
If anyone stated that AKs is better than AA going up against each other then they need a nice little bump on the noggin
There is more to poker than life
 
Old 12-27-2004, 10:19 PM #50 (permalink)  
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