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star5328
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02-08-2005, 04:38 AM
Post subject: broke again :|
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 27
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Well...im broke again. Heres the story...deposited 50 into empire about 3 weeks ago, brought it up to 240 playing nl25, then flushed it back down to 0. I made a referral and got the 50, raised it up to 110, then back down to about 30. Made another referral and then it dropped back to 0. I just dont get what im doing wrong..always seems to be the low set against my two pair...i dunno...I seem to do a lot better in live play, but its not always available...what the hell is the problem.
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Sed
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wastin' away again in margaritaville....
Posts: 1,102
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bankroll management 101
search for it on the forum
- sed
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guitarhero14
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: .05/.10 NL
Posts: 270
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Too small of a bankroll. I dont know how good you are but i suggest changing your site and lowering your limits.
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-guitar
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star5328
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 27
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i think i understand...where do you recommend? Pstars? say... .05-.10?
and i dont consider myself being a bad player, im like a rock online, because people dont catch on to it as they are quickly coming and going. I limp AK, JJ-22, call A anything suited from the button or seat before it, always fold suited connectors 23 - 89, fold kj to substantial preflop raise, fold k10, fold q10, limp qj, j10...this is all considered good play isnt it?
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guitarhero14
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: .05/.10 NL
Posts: 270
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Why are you limping with AK?
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-guitar
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star5328
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 27
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seems like i can never hit anything off of it...i used to raise it...only to see and 10 7 4 flop and get bet off it...is the rest ok?
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archangel183
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
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Hey all, new to the site.
If you're limping with AK or JJ, that's probably not a good sign, IMHO. Do you mean if it is raised to you, or if you are first to act?
You say you call Ax suited from the button or whatever - do you call, even against a massive raise?
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star5328
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 27
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i limp if its not raised and call the raise if there is one. i only call ax suited and mid to low pocket pairs for minimum bet
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guitarhero14
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: .05/.10 NL
Posts: 270
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star: you'll win AK more often than not if played correctly. Its getting late at the moment so I will check the rest of your play later. BTW: are you playing limit or nL?
Arch: Axs requires quite a few callers to be profitable. Do NOT call with a massive raise in front of you.
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-guitar
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star5328
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 27
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nl...i dont even know how to play limit..honestly..if you sat me at a limit table i wouldnt know what i could and could not bet...lol...alright thx
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archangel183
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
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It should be the other way around - raise if no one else has raised. If someone re-raises you, think about laying it down, depending on the type of player making the re-raise.
Depending on the amount of the raise to you, make a judgement call. 80% of the time, I'll call a raise with AK or JJ unless it's for a ridiculous amount.
Personally, I will only play Ax suited if, 1) there are a lot of callers, and 2) I am in LP or close to it.
It just sounds like you need to look at your preflop play a little bit. Nothing wrong w/that - when I started playing, I used to limp in with AK too. 
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star5328
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 27
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what do you mean raise if nobody else has raised...which hand are you talking about, and in what position
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archangel183
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10
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AK or JJ - raise it if the ppl acting before you has either called the big blind or folded. Any position.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by star5328
i think i understand...where do you recommend? Pstars? say... .05-.10?
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I don't know what stakes are offered (I do well enough where I'm at that I don't need to move) but I've heard that the easiest game to beat is at Party Poker. With the amount of variance you're seeing, you might try playing some 0.01/0.02 games for practice. You won't make a significant profit, but you won't lose as much either. If you've been playing above .05/.10, definitely jump down to the .05/.10 level while you build your game.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by star5328
I limp AK, JJ-22, call A anything suited from the button or seat before it, always fold suited connectors 23 - 89, fold kj to substantial preflop raise, fold k10, fold q10, limp qj, j10...this is all considered good play isnt it?
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Limping AK, JJ, TT are all bad plays in my book. If you limp them, more people are going to see the flop with you. That means you almost absolutely have to hit the flop for a chance to win. If you raise, you get more money in the pot and increase your chances by limiting the field. For example:
You hold AK and the flop comes 258 rainbow. You limped and so did half the table (6 x 0.10 = 0.60 pot). At the micro limits (all you can afford) people will play anything. When someone bets on this, even with 83o, they have you beat and you'll either have to fold or be losing money in the long run.
Looking at it again with a raised preflop:
You hold AK and two people have limped before you. You raise 4xBB (to 0.50) to try to limit the field. All but two of your opponents fold (3 x 0.50 + 3 x 0.10 + 0.05 = 1.85 pot). Now the same flop comes down: 258 rainbow. You can feel comfortable in knowing that your opponents probably folded hands like 83o which would beat you here. If they have any hands but a pocket pair and you're probably ahead. You can bet out to find out or even check to see what they do. Worst case scenario, you end up having to fold here too. Best case scenario: by betting out, they fold because they don't have any part of it and you end up making three times what you could have made in the first situation. Note that if you hit the flop in both situations, you'll probably win and by betting you substantially increased the amount of money that you'll win.
Hands like JJ and TT don't hold up well against the field. Raise them and then the limited competition so that if people play you can have a decent idea of where you're at (as well as having a better than decent chance of being ahead in a 2 or 3 way pot).
Suited connectors 65 and above I would limp in with from late position (the dealer button up to 2 positions back) unless I notice the people behind me tend to raise a lot preflop.
KT, QT, JT, QJ are all limp hands by me in any position. When they hit, they are decent hands usually. Check out the starting hands recommendations at http://www.flopturnriver.com/essays_...ps_0_to_2.html
- Jeffrey[/url]
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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Wow one word RAISE...
You definately seem like too tight/passive...
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30%
Still looking for my royal flush.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by archangel183
Hey all, new to the site.
If you're limping with AK or JJ, that's probably not a good sign, IMHO. Do you mean if it is raised to you, or if you are first to act?
You say you call Ax suited from the button or whatever - do you call, even against a massive raise?
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Limpimg with JJ in NL limit is a great idea...its value as a hidden set is extremely profitable..People will get confused when you limp with JJ one time then reraises them with it preflop you have to switch it up in NL. JJ is by no means a hand you have to always raise with....consider the fact that a card higher than a J is going to hit the board over half the time.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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the other day, i bet hard with JJ 3 times, all three times an overcard came, i bet out and got raised like a bitch. then i limped it twice, and both times the flops were like 78K all hearts or AKQ, or stuff like that. don't even think anyone had great draws, but they were scary flops and i bet/folded.
then the next day i called two raisers with jj and folded it unimproved to flop raising when i missed and an ace came down and two others were splooging over it, and my J came on the turn and they both ended up ai by the river with their pairs of aces... i know that was the right move there, they were betting too steep to give me odds, but it ended up a 100 dollar pot, if i'd known both of them were planning on taking it all-in implied odds might've been there barely.
not liking jj right now.
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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Here is a basic tight, solid preflop NL ring strategy that's hard to lose money at.
Raise AK AA KK QQ in any position. I recommend frequently limping AA or KK in EP hoping someone behind you puts in a raise so you can reraise, though the textbook play is just to raise it up initially. At a really loose and aggressive table, I would try to limp-reraise QQ also. You can also limp AK sometimes to switch it up. With JJ, TT, and AQs you can either raise or limp in EP; I would almost always raise with these but if you're playing tight you could limp about half the time (this is also useful for deception purposes). AQo you can raise, limp, or fold in EP; the safest play is just to muck it. You should limp and call reasonable sized raises with any pocket pair from any position, looking for a set on the flop.
In MP, you can start raising with AQ, and you should also start raising most everytime with JJ and TT and limping with KQs, KJs, ATs, and AJs.
In LP, you can start raising 99, 88, KQ, and AJ. You can also be limping or combination value-steal raising suited connectors and 1-gappers QJs-56s and A9s-A7s, though, if you really want to be a rock, you can muck these too.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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when you raise with AK, people dont know if you have KK AA or QQ
i bluff all trash flops with AK, but if i get called i won't continue it from there.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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"Betting an unimproved AK on the flop is not a bluff "
from fnord's words to live by..
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
"Betting an unimproved AK on the flop is not a bluff "
from fnord's words to live by..
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In limit maybe....AK can be a big leak in NL if you dont play it well post flop.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
"Betting an unimproved AK on the flop is not a bluff "
from fnord's words to live by..
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In limit maybe....AK can be a big leak in NL if you dont play it well post flop. |
Quoted for emphasis.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
"Betting an unimproved AK on the flop is not a bluff "
from fnord's words to live by..
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In limit maybe....AK can be a big leak in NL if you dont play it well post flop. |
Do you disagree with betting an unimproved AK on a garbage flop? Just curious because I do that a majority of the time, and while I have to fold it sometimes, I also take down quite a few pots with it. Currently I'm seeing it in both the suited and unsuited versions as in my top 10 hands (AA, KK, QQ, and TT being the only hands beating it).
- Jeffrey
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
"Betting an unimproved AK on the flop is not a bluff "
from fnord's words to live by..
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In limit maybe....AK can be a big leak in NL if you dont play it well post flop. |
yeah, in limit
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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In NL, I would bet virtually every missed flop with AK if I raised preflop (though I would do this with any hand I raised with preflop and missed the flop with). It's not a pure bluff, because it very well might be the best hand and I have two overs, but if I get called, I'm not happy about it since I'm almost surely beat.
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DrumzCT
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 159
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Quote:
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(AA, KK, QQ, and TT being the only hands beating it).
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You value TT over JJ?
Is it because TT is alittle easier to lay down if the board goes over you?
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Embrace the bubble
Operation Back to Basics
Goal: re-build BR to 1k from $25 by August 8th
Currently at: $200
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrumzCT
Quote:
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(AA, KK, QQ, and TT being the only hands beating it).
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You value TT over JJ?
Is it because TT is alittle easier to lay down if the board goes over you? |
No, I don't value TT over JJ. I'd much rather have JJ. Statistically I've made more money with TT than JJ currently, however. I attribute this mostly to variation in that I've only played about 5k hands.
- Jeffrey
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Superstar
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 22
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I don't know if the fact you have made more money with JJ then with 10-10 is strictly a variance thing, although variance is a factor. I think that poker tracker shows that most people make more money with 10 10 than with JJ. Probably because of the laydown factor.
That said I agree with the school of thought that limping JJ is a pretty good idea most of the time. More than half the time overs are going to flop, and although overs in a flop dont neccessarily mean you opponent has you beat, it sure is hard to bet confidently when they are out there. And the pots you do win are never that huge.
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Laeelin
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,137
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JJ is cursed =)
(well, actually it's just hard to lay down, and easy to raise to much with)
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studboyjoe
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02-22-2005, 05:20 PM
Post subject: broke again
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#30 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 130
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I agree that JJ and AK can be heartbreakers, but always raise first in and raise if there are limpers only. I will occasionally limp with these if I'm in the BB (surprise factor)or if there are many limpers who I know will stay in no matter what I bet.
When overcards come on the flop, I drop JJ as easily as 22 if
there is significant betting. AK is okay with rags on the flop if there are only one or two players in and I will tend to bet it in the hopes of taking the pot right then. When reraised, I tend to fold both if I don't hit something decent. I tend to be wary of coordinated flops when there are 4-6 players and might be less aggressive in that circumstance with these hands.
I think the big mistake with these and other "big" hands is falling in love with them and not letting them go when the situation warrants.
BTW, I'm new to this forum and find it to be extremely helpful, thanks to all who contribute their opinions!
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Sharky: I've got good news and bad.
me: what's the good?
Sharky: we all voted you Most Valuable Player!
me: what's the bad?
Sharky: It was at our weekly poker game!
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TopThis
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 34
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I'm in pretty big disagreement in the value of JJ here. AK I don't care for much but I'd take JJ every hand and make a killing off of it in the process.
Sure chances are over 50% an overcard will come on the flop but the chances a single opponent hit that overcard are well below that.
Limp in with JJ? That's crazy. That would mean the only cards you ever raise with is AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ and KQ because any other hand is dominated by JJ.
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Spandrel
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 37
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Laeelin
JJ is cursed =)
(well, actually it's just hard to lay down, and easy to raise to much with)
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I think that is more the issue. I think JJ is just simply a harder laydown than TT. I'm not sure if it is the paint or what, but psychologically, it is harder to laydown JJ than like 99 if the flop contains multiple overcards.
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Usuyami
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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Just raise a decent amount if no one has yet, if you get callers and the flop has overs, be cautious. The more callers there are, the higher the chances of someone hitting those overs. That's why if I play JJ, I like to isolate one opponent to play HU with. If someone raised before you, if the raise isn't too big, you can call and see the flop. If someone raises huge before you, and he/she gets a crapload of callers and maybe even a reraise, then you probably shouldn't play.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Usuyami
If someone raises huge before you, and he/she gets a crapload of callers...then you probably shouldn't play.
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If a ton of people called, it's very possible that they all have high cards and are conflicting with each other, meaning that your JJ might well hold up. Just something to think about.
- Jeffrey
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