Originally Posted by tyrn

even without a flush draw, raise this multiway. If no one calls, its no big deal because when someone does call your raise, the pot will be so big by the river in comparison to if you just called, that it will compensate for the pennies you lost from slowplaying.

Originally Posted by amir is cool

Why aren't you raising pocket pairs from cutoff preflop?

Dont let like 7 people see the flop for a big blind, make them pay to see the flop. You want to punish them for playing weak cards in a weak way.

Originally Posted by Vinland

The reason I dont raise w/ 33 is that there are very few cards that can come on the flop that I am happy to see...
Given the fact that my 33 vs any collection of higher cards is essentially a race and with all the dead money from the limps, any villain would be essentially priced to call my raise to see the flop and they technically wouldnt be making a mistake by calling, given the odds...
If I am wrong on this one, I'd love to hear a second opinion

Originally Posted by lockpull

I always thought it might be a good thing to raise low PP here because; it increases chances that the hands you are playing against are likley to pay you off when your set hits, you have the image of a strong hand allowing you to take more pots down with cbets (flop/action dependant of course), it starts building a good size pot early on making it easier to get it in if you want, and (even though I know most micros do not pay attention, yada yada) if they see you do this once with 33 they are more likley to call when you do it with AA in the same position.

Just my opinion....could be way off.

Originally Posted by LawDude

However, when you are setmining (or making any other longshot 8 to 1 type of play), the most important thing is to have sufficient implied odds to pay off your bet at better odds than its expected frequency.

And raising cuts your implied odds, both because (1) you are driving people out of the pot who could potentially pay you off if you hit your set, and (2) you are reducing the ratio between your expected payoff and your pre-flop bet by increasing the denominator of that fraction.

Originally Posted by LawDude

you are reducing the ratio between your expected payoff and your pre-flop bet by increasing the denominator of that fraction.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

PPs are an incredible multiway hand. I dont get why so many people want to isolate OOP with them these days.

Originally Posted by iopq

raising from the CO is perfect because you get IN position by discouraging the BU from calling
I think the most important reason is that we get to take down the pot preflop or on the flop a lot

poker is a game of fighting for the blinds
by raising preflop we fight for the blinds directly

we are happy: everyone folds
we are OK with: some people call
we are unhappy: someone 3bets

it's also a slight mistake to let BB in
you're not going to make more money with an average bad player in the pot than out of it
if he's really bad, maybe, but in general I'd prefer a HU or 3way raised pot
say our equity in the hand is 1/3 (I don't mean hot-and-cold equity, I mean total equity if we play out all possible flops with all possible starting hands) in a 16.5BB pot, then we have 5.5BB in equity for a raise of 5BB we profit .5BB
that would be 25ptBB/100 and we're not even taking in account skill or the fact that our hand is on average better than whatever the limpers have

in a 5BB pot with 5 people, our hand would have to play almost twice as well multiway than our opponent's hands to make up the .5BB difference we lost in equity from not getting the blinds out of the equation
even if that's true, wouldn't our hand play better in the previous scenario as well?
Unless we have good reasons to believe that limping is better, like aggressive blind 3bing, blinds play terribly post-flop but might fold preflop, etc. we must conclude that the default play is to isoraise with almost any hand we want to play

Originally Posted by iopq

I don't mean we take down the pot any time we're good
I mean we win a big pot once in a while and win a small pot sometimes and the chances of our winning a small pot increase if we're heads up or three way

I never said limping wasn't good
I just think raising is slightly better

not sure if we do hit a set whether we want to be 5 way in a limped pot or 3 way in a raised pot

Originally Posted by iopq

poker is a game of fighting for the blinds
by raising preflop we fight for the blinds directly

Originally Posted by Pelion

Hell no! No limit poker against loose/bad players is about hitting a big hand while someone else holds TPWK+ and taking a stack in one hand. Your biggest edge is that you wont be stacking off with those same TP hands on scary boards. Limping is fine with so many players in already.

Originally Posted by Pelion

Do your steel attempts make 1.5bb every time you try them?

Originally Posted by Pelion

Do your steel attempts make 1.5bb every time you try them?