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Duckslayer2k
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05-09-2007, 06:34 PM
Post subject: Bots on Full Tilt
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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I just read this on 2+2... normally I don't believe in stuff like this but the evidence is too compelling not to. Everyone who plays at FT should be emailing support and voicing their displeasure.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&fpart=1&vc=1
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litetruck
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 78
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Wow, thats nuts...great detective work by that guy.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
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Very interesting, I didn't read any of the responses...
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Wait.
But how GOOD are the bots? Just because A computer is doing the math, doesn't mean that they are unbeatable. It's been proven time and time again that a computer can't handle an aggressive opponent. If you think you've found a bot, kick it in the nuts by being uber aggro every time you're heads up.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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Props to that guy for the work.
I'm still not convinced that the accounts are in fact bots, but they are definitely controlled by the same person. I can't believe that FT hasn't taken action yet.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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wow i just read that whole thread, took like 15 mins, very interesting... lol they even found out who the guy was
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litetruck
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
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But how GOOD are the bots? Just because A computer is doing the math, doesn't mean that they are unbeatable. It's been proven time and time again that a computer can't handle an aggressive opponent. If you think you've found a bot, kick it in the nuts by being uber aggro every time you're heads up.
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If you read the post, the author did find a "pattern" for them and did exploit them somewhat. Apparently, the owner of the bots may have taken control of them at some point. Whether they are truly bots is probably debatable but there is some type of cheating/collusion going on.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
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This is scary. The worst part is FullTilt seems to condone the activity displayed by these accounts.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I've played with the three alleged bots a lot. In my mined database, they're all winners, mariojr for 2ptbb/100 over 28k hands, full_tilting for 0.5ptbb/100 over 26k hands and 1forthethumb for 0.75ptbb/100 over 20k hands.
I think the evidence is pretty strong that they're bots, but it could also be explained if they're friends who play the exact same strategy (and always avoid playing at the same tables) or one super-human who 8-tables on 2 or 3 accounts simultaneously. The most amazing part is that three accounts can multi-table and put in enough hours to be 3 of the top 6 volume players in my mined database AND NEVER PLAY IN A POT TOGETHER. The fact that they have identical stats is weird too.
fwiw, I'm down ~$110 over 8k hands against the three of them  I always thought they were predictably nitty taggs, but I guess I didn't take advantage of it.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
fwiw, I'm down ~$110 over 8k hands against the three of them I always thought they were predictably nitty taggs, but I guess I didn't take advantage of it. |
QFT, it takes time to develop a read and someone who's just lightly trimming you isn't going to draw attention compared to the guy who's trying to skin you alive.
This isn't some uber-bot by the sounds of it. With tools I could download off the internet, I could probably build something like it in a week or two. However, I wouldn't have faith that such a simplistic approach would be +ev.
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litetruck
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 78
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How would your code interface with the poker program? I'm just trying to understand how this works.
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zook
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
However, I wouldn't have faith that such a simplistic approach would be +ev.
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Think of the rakeback on 3 high volume accounts...
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by litetruck
How would your code interface with the poker program? I'm just trying to understand how this works.
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Google WinHold'em. They pretty much solved the problem. I know people who could take that up a notch. The value just isn't there compared to other uses of our time (incluing playing poker straight-up.)
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
However, I wouldn't have faith that such a simplistic approach would be +ev.
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Think of the rakeback on 3 high volume accounts... |
I still wouldn't have that much faith in the c-bet at 200NL. Very interesting. I probably would waste time trying to balance his flop range better, then dig into 2 barrel ranges.
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zook
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Posted on 2p2 by a mod and friend of one of the "bot" account owners:
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Originally Posted by nation
All,
I know chuck, the owner of full_tilting. I hesitated to write anything on the subject because he didn't want to draw more attention, but you guys are harassing him at the tables, so might as well prove you guys wrong instead of ignoring it.
Chuck is not using any form of a bot. He plays on full_tilting, and his friends play on the other accounts. They come over, play from the same IP address on different computers, and play exactly the same because they chop up all the profits. They sit next to each other and help each other out with difficult decisions, which is perfectly within the terms and conditions of FTP.
They are hard core grinders. They sit there all day to grind low limits and turn a good profit. Because of some player accusing them of being a bot, their accounts were frozen for the past month and a half, and they lost out on all of that potential profit. However, Full Tilt completely exonerated all accounts associated with full_tilting of any wrong doing.
Again, they're not bots or anything illegal against Full Tilt's terms and conditions. They are simply dedicated grinders who have developed a preflop and postflop style, and never deviate from it unless they have to adjust. They hammer new players and adjust for the regulars.
Now you know why they play so similarly; they play exactly the same. Chuck is a good guy, and to be honest, doesn't even know how to configure his virus protection; I had to do it for him. They play next to each other for motivation and chop up profits to reduce variance. Coming in every day, grinding, and sharing in the highs and lows makes it an enjoyable experience for them and is why they're able to grind for so long every day. It's a couple friends just shooting the shtt and putting a jihad on the 200nl tables.
tl;dr: They're not bots and they are acting within Full Tilt's terms and conditions.
-nation |
This seems plausible to me. He's posted a follow-up that's convincing as well.
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zenbitz
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If you could 8 table on 3 accounts simultaneously, why wouldn't you 24-table on a single account?
And if you could run 3 bots, why not run 30? Or at least 9.
So, something doesn't add up. Sounds like it's some kind of "pseudobot" player assist program, where they are roommates or something and wrote a log-on script that prevents them from joining eachothers table (and also the original 2+2 posters table).
Some kind of sooped up PAHUD.
Finally - if the bot poker algorthim is simplistic, no reason why someone couldn't just play the same way - and actually with the huge number of hands put in by these accounts, their stats would be quite stable.
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zook
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
If you could 8 table on 3 accounts simultaneously, why wouldn't you 24-table on a single account?
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Full Tilt only lets you play on 8 tables at a time.
But you're right, there are other logical explanations, see above.
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Alexos
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Full Tilt only lets you play on 8 tables at a time.
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You can get it increased to 12-tables and probably as many as you want by emailing them.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
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Fnord
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This could get ugly.
Bottom line is that, if done right, FTP doesn't know what the fuck is going on.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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Quote:
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Now you know why they play so similarly; they play exactly the same. Chuck is a good guy, and to be honest, doesn't even know how to configure his virus protection; I had to do it for him. They play next to each other for motivation and chop up profits to reduce variance. Coming in every day, grinding, and sharing in the highs and lows makes it an enjoyable experience for them and is why they're able to grind for so long every day. It's a couple friends just shooting the shtt and putting a jihad on the 200nl tables.
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I guess it's somehwat plausible, but it sounds so contrived to me.
The amount of discipline required to play exactly the same way over thousands and thousands of hands is extraordinary. To expect that not just one person, but mutiple people are doing this and they all happen to be playing from the same IP address is really stretching it IMO.
Are these accounts ever not playing simultaneously? I mean I've played over at a friend's place before and vice versa but this guy seems to be suggesting that the only time they're playing is when they're together. If I was that into poker that I was putting in thousands of hands on a regular basis I think I'd put in some hands from the comfort of my own home on occassion, not just when I was with my friends. If these are indeed bots though it makes sense that they're always playing from the same IP address. If you had mutiple bot accounts why run just one when you can have several playing. Does none of them ever get sick or have other obligations that they might not make it to play that day?
He acknowledges that they're playing every day together and for very long hours, but he tries it to make it sound like just a group of friends "shooting the shit" and playing poker. I mean who really does that? Is my bullshit meter just overly sensitive or does anyone else not see multi-tabling over tons of hours every day as a leisurely activity?
Who here has multiple friends that play online poker on the same site you do, at the same time and for long hours like you do, and also at the same stakes you do but you have never played a single hand with them? Anyone? I know I'll sit on the same table of someone I know just to fuck with them or we'll play occasionally sit at a low limit table and screw around. You know you're not colluding so you don't even think twice about it. If you were using bots though I can see why you'd make a point never to have them play at the same table to help prevent scrutiny. If these truly are a group of friends just having a good time together I'd expect them to act more like friends and maybe donk it up on a micro table or play HU on occassion. If you were a bunch of bots though, what's the point?
Also, who shares profits like that? Swapping out pieces of yourself with others in a tourney or staking someone is one thing, but for a group of people to grind it out in cash games every day and distribute the wins and losses sounds like more BS. That excuse does cover the bases though if it was just a single person swapping money around multiple accounts.
The whole tone of that guy's statement seems like he's trying to justify his "friend's" behavior. He didn't just say "Hey, I know this guy. He's my friend and I can vouch that he isn't a cheater." He instead specifically makes a point of justifying certain behaviors and mentions several times how they all comply with FullTilt's terms and conditions.
Hi, my name is JJProdigy. What's that? Multiple accounts? Ohh no, that was just my elderly grandmother that I'm teaching poker over at my house playing a large buy-in MTT on an account I created for her. . .
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Also, who shares profits like that? Swapping out pieces of yourself with others in a tourney or staking someone is one thing, but for a group of people to grind it out in cash games every day and distribute the wins and losses sounds like more BS. That excuse does cover the bases though if it was just a single person swapping money around multiple accounts.
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Also, they're not splitting up a very big pie with that win rate. Their time would be better spent flipping burgers. Then again, the same could be said about most drug dealers.
They might have just done this just well enough to put FTP in a difficult spot.
Edit: Really FTP best and only viable play here is to ask the players in question to leave and not come back (players get to cash out), then show some commitment to removing bots to the community.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Also, they're not splitting up a very big pie with that win rate. Their time would be better spent flipping burgers. Then again, the same could be said about most drug dealers.
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Very true, but if these accounts were getting rakeback then it suddenly becomes very lucrative. $1/2 NL isn't micro stakes and even if they were breaking even, the amount of money that 3+ high volume accounts could make would be very respectable in most people's eyes.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Very true, but if these accounts were getting rakeback then it suddenly becomes very lucrative. $1/2 NL isn't micro stakes and even if they were breaking even, the amount of money that 3+ high volume accounts could make would be very respectable in most people's eyes. |
It depends on how FTP calculates the player's rake contribution. Playing that tight will generate less rake over time than play from stronger players.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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I agree with dnuts almost entirely, I can't buy what nation is saying... The stats are almost 100% identical..
Someone in the thread is also saying how the vpip/pfr isn't 100% identical and would be if it were a bot. This guy has a good response to it:
Quote:
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As to your first point, there are 2 explanations. First, even over 100k hands, hand quality distribution would not be even. I haven't run the numbers, but from my experience this is a very tight grouping, not a loose one. Can someone do a monte carlo sim or a regression analysis to show this? And second, in was clearly stated in the very first post of this thread that the bot owner will take manual control from time to time, and this also is enough to explain the discrepancies.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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haha
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Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.
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Silly String
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
I guess it's somehwat plausible, but it sounds so contrived to me.
The amount of discipline required to play exactly the same way over thousands and thousands of hands is extraordinary. To expect that not just one person, but mutiple people are doing this and they all happen to be playing from the same IP address is really stretching it IMO.
. . .
He acknowledges that they're playing every day together and for very long hours, but he tries it to make it sound like just a group of friends "shooting the shit" and playing poker. I mean who really does that? Is my bullshit meter just overly sensitive or does anyone else not see multi-tabling over tons of hours every day as a leisurely activity?
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This is exactly what I was thinking. I have a system, but my starting hands vary over 10K samples all the time. I can only anticipate that they would continue to vary over more hands. I also evolve my game as time goes on. I guess these guys have no evolution to their game. Same gameplan everytime. Like DaNuts said, my bullshit meter is sending off all kinds of alarms.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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zenbitz
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If you play a set strategy over many 1000's of hands, then your stats will be very stable.
If you are playing 8 tables, it's much easier to play every hand mechanically rather than think about it. The delay in actions is explained by a real person 8 tabling.
This is kind of a reverse Turing test. A "Turing test" for artificial intelligence is that if you ask questions blindly to an AI program and a person, and you can't tell the difference then you have achieved "intellegence".
Finally - if you could write a program to play like this (and probably you could) then you certainly could PLAY like this.
Question is, what difference does it make? If they are telling the truth, then there is clearly nothing wrong with this approach (other than dying of boredom). If they are lying and it is a bot - so what! It's been shown to be equivalent to 3 guys in their undershorts playing unimaginatively.
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Halv
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pro crastinator
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Didn't read all the replies, but wanted to reply to this:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
If they are lying and it is a bot - so what! It's been shown to be equivalent to 3 guys in their undershorts playing unimaginatively.
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The bots are taking money from the fish. We can take money from the fish faster than from the bots. Hence the bots reduce our winrate. (if we are able to exploit the fish more easily than we can exploit the bot, which is probably true since they are so tight pre).
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zook
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
It depends on how FTP calculates the player's rake contribution. Playing that tight will generate less rake over time than play from stronger players. |
It's dealt not contributed at FTP, so nittiness doesn't matter that much. When I was 6-tabling 1/2 NL FR at FT I was making $8-$10/hour from rb. These guys 12-table and probably play at least 30 hours a week, so they're making $2k/month a minimum from rakeback, imo. Possibly as much as $3k. A 1ptbb/100 winrate on 100k hands is $4k more. Not too bad.
I'm with dnuts though, my BS alarm goes off at almost every post by nation, nlnut or brandonjoseph over at 2p2. I think these accounts are some combination of botting and supervised botting.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
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some of you guys seem pretty naive to me.
there's no way i could sit down with my two other siamese brothers and play the EXACT SAME WAY over thousands of hands. ...much less two "buddies" that think completely differently than i about a given situation.
i have an autistic son, and he cant sit at a poker table and play the same cards the same way...EVERY FRIGGIN TIME. the human brain simply does not have that kind of memorization power to remember a "blackjack-type strategy" on steroids.
they are definitely bots, and FTP is giving it their seal of approval.
for once, the guys in the chats yelling, "this #@%!! site is #@%!! rigged" may be on to something.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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litetruck
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 78
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I googled winholdem like fnord suggested and holy cow. Bot programs, scripts, how-tos, etc are just sitting out there for people. There is a forum for the bot makers on how to set them up and code them.
If these guys are smart enough to code these things to actually win, surely they are smart enough to be good players. I guess 20 bots @ 70% of some people is better than 100% of one.
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Ash256
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Is botting online poker counted as fraud in the same way as credit card fraud is?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Is botting online poker counted as fraud in the same way as credit card fraud is?
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The short answer is no.
Credit Card fraud will probably get you sent to jail. Botting will cause you to lose your account (and any money in it) and at worst sued.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
haha
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i lol'ed so hard.
Looks like estrop finally made it as a balla.
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biondino
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The 97% cbet stat is giving me pause for thought. Do we all accept that this isn't optimal, even for a nitty strategy, at $200NL? However, if you were programming a bot to play as simply as possible while maintaining expected value, you would, I guess, have it cbet a large amount.
Sounds like bots to me. And I am totally anti-conspiracy theory in general.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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Wow, I can't believe how long that thread is on 2p2...
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DBL0SVN
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 230
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Great detective work by the OP - bots for sure. I'm avoiding Full Tilt like the plague.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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lol, guess the only network i dont have an account on...
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
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That thread is pretty entertaining. That guy is definitely is up to something. I'm sure he plays occasionally to not arouse suspicion and manually takes control but he has some program set up to play for him for sure.
He couldn't even get his story straight in the thread at times.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
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From the 2p2 Forum:
LOL
Seriously though, i hope FTP does something about this. I really like their RB system and am not keen on taking my "business" anywhere else.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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zenbitz
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
Didn't read all the replies, but wanted to reply to this:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
If they are lying and it is a bot - so what! It's been shown to be equivalent to 3 guys in their undershorts playing unimaginatively.
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The other sharks are taking money from the fish. We can take money from the fish faster than from the other sharks. Hence the other sharks reduce our winrate. (if we are able to exploit the fish more easily than we can exploit the shark, which is probably true since they are so tight pre). |
It's 3 "bots" playing 8 tables each.
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zenbitz
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
some of you guys seem pretty naive to me.
there's no way i could sit down with my two other siamese brothers and play the EXACT SAME WAY over thousands of hands. ...much less two "buddies" that think completely differently than i about a given situation.
i have an autistic son, and he cant sit at a poker table and play the same cards the same way...EVERY FRIGGIN TIME. the human brain simply does not have that kind of memorization power to remember a "blackjack-type strategy" on steroids.
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There is no evidence they do this (at least presented). The evidence is that:
1) they play 14/7.
2) they always c-bet the same amount
3) they always raise 3x
How hard would it be to make a list of starting hands and raise/limp/fold/re-raise them? Isn't this how we all learned to play LHE?
I am not saying they are NOT bots, but it's not like there's PROOF.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
The 97% cbet stat is giving me pause for thought. Do we all accept that this isn't optimal, even for a nitty strategy, at $200NL? However, if you were programming a bot to play as simply as possible while maintaining expected value, you would, I guess, have it cbet a large amount..
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Why would you program a bot to play as simply as possible? How would you get 97%, anyway? Always c-bet unless flop is monotone and we don't have one of the suit? Or is it checking 97% randomly?
97% seems so far from optimal, that it's probably evidence AGAINST a bot, and FOR a person playing 8 tables who can't make super deep decisions in 30 seconds.
I mean - if there's one thing a bot can do that a person can't it's make straightforward decisions incredibly fast.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
haha
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Funniest shit I've seen all week. Wow never laughed at loud so hard on this forum like this lmfao.
BTW no way in hell these aren't bots.
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I Like Pie
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 399
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
There is no evidence they do this (at least presented). The evidence is that:
1) they play 14/7.
2) they always c-bet the same amount
3) they always raise 3x
How hard would it be to make a list of starting hands and raise/limp/fold/re-raise them? Isn't this how we all learned to play LHE?
I am not saying they are NOT bots, but it's not like there's PROOF.
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There is more evidence that than. Making and sticking to a post-flop strategy and playing it perfectly over several 100k hands is pretty unlikely to say the least.
Here are all their stats:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
Why would you program a bot to play as simply as possible? How would you get 97%, anyway? Always c-bet unless flop is monotone and we don't have one of the suit? Or is it checking 97% randomly?
97% seems so far from optimal, that it's probably evidence AGAINST a bot, and FOR a person playing 8 tables who can't make super deep decisions in 30 seconds.
I mean - if there's one thing a bot can do that a person can't it's make straightforward decisions incredibly fast.
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The bot is programmed to c-bet 100% of the time I guess, remember the owner takes control manually at times so he could help lowering it to 97% by not c-betting.
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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UPDATE: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0#Post10324465
OMG this is soooo LAME
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Not that I would before, but NOW, I'll never play FTP again, EVER.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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One thing I like about FTR is that even on the most popular threads, you don't need to lose three hours of your life reading just one of them.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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from 2+2:
"But guys, think of all the rake they make off these guys, they play all day and don't even need breaks to take a piss!!! "
QFT LMFAO
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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That thread is now just insane. 1842 replies in less than 10 days, and still not a good response from full tilt. It took ~5 mins for the whole thing to load!
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"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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