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LeFou
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12-31-2004, 02:00 PM
Post subject: Big Slick versus Big Raise
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Live Tourney (APL if you know what that means). Early, blinds 10/20, stacks avg. 3300. All but one fold to me in the SB so I minraise (to 40) Slick hoping both will call. BB reraises to 200.
Now, early in a tournament I don't want to put much in on a coinflip, but since this is <10% of me and I'm not positive he's got a pair, I call.
Question 1) Raise there? After calling it occurred to me that a re-reraise might be a better way to find out if it's a pair.
Flop
AQ6, pot has 420 in it.
Opp bets 1,000
I know opp pretty well. He's prone to tilting, crying, calls and desperation pushes
BUT
I've been chatting with him because he's making loose calls against this other guy at the table, gunning for him, and I've been saying knock it off that's wack, and he's all "I know, alright"
So I put him on a set here?
Question 2) Reraise to find out? This is a pretty clear raise-or-fold, but this early in a tourney I don't want 1/2 my chips in there on TPTK
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elanto
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,117
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From what your describing your opp could have easily have QQ IMO you should fold, but a re raise pre flop would have been good, just to get more information, I think in this scenario you are beat, either by QQ or AQ so fold
-anto
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<dwarfman> No I had sex for the first time on 23rd March 2005 at 11.56pm.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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I did. Made me mad, too, 'cause I got Slicked three times in that tourney and each time I lost beacoup chips with it.
As he dragged the pot I asked if he'd show. He turned up one of his cards: an Ace.
Damn. Life goes on.
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allLiving
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 799
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I'd put him on AK or Ax weak kicker, hence the reason he overbet hoping to scare people out of the pot. QQ and or AQ are check-raise hands here and I'm hoping this player is smart enough to try and take care of the potential amount of chips he could make if he didn't overbet the pot with a dynamite hand here. I'd put him on a weak top pair hand.
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Les_Worm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,697
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by allLiving
I'd put him on AK or Ax weak kicker, hence the reason he overbet hoping to scare people out of the pot. QQ and or AQ are check-raise hands here and I'm hoping this player is smart enough to try and take care of the potential amount of chips he could make if he didn't overbet the pot with a dynamite hand here. I'd put him on a weak top pair hand.
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With a reraise preflop, a checkraise on the flop probably won't work. He almost has to bet after that reraise. A check only leads to a free card.
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The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You
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TheDoc
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 144
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i put him on ace moderate kicker (aj probably), and if i was him i would of put you on a mid pocket pair, nothing too strong though, and made that push because i wouldnt want to you calling with an under pair and having you hit your set on the turn (like some guy named davsimon did to me).
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TheDoc
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 144
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also one more thing, i think the only way you put him on a set is if the board is 2 or 3 suited and he wants to make you pay to draw if he thinks you might have that draw.
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Molinero
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In The General Vicinity of Dallas
Posts: 230
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[quote="TheDoc"]i put him on ace moderate kicker (aj probably), and if i was him i would of put you on a mid pocket pair...[quote]
Quote:
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...QQ and or AQ are check-raise hands here...
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If Lefou's opponent is who I think it is, I think you guys have given him too much credit. He has not the wit to think of a check-raise nor the will to execute it.
He probably had a pretty bad Ace, and was over betting. He only showed you the Ace because his kicker was probably irrelevant.
Concerning a set: the fella in question will slow play a set, because he thinks that's what you're supposed to do -- no matter how many suited and/or connected cards there are on the board.
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"We thought you was a toad!"
-- O Brother Where Art Thou?
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Mony B
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 192
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tough call to make, but I would have to say push after the flop bet, it was an obvious over bet, fish like to moneymaker it and make all the good calls and raises and what not. Preflop you where fine, but on the flop I would have to have said raise or push.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Haha, its kind of funny that no one has noticed this, since the check raise thing is being talked about. If Lefou was in the SB and this guy was in the BB, Lefou acted first preflop and checked to him.
I think you gotta reraise here for sure. You've basically trapped him perfectly, and now you're going to fold because he overbet? That's pretty damn passive. He has no reason to put you on a strong ace, but especially not AK. You just made a weak (MINRAISER!) raise preflop, called a decent one, and then checked to him on the flop.
What this crazy overbet screams to me is that he's looking to take the hand down with a rather weak hand, with this particular flop (could easily be a hand like KK, I've seen many fish do this when they're worried they're beat with a hand like that - or it could be a weak ace when they're hoping you don't have an ace, and will fold to the big bet if you do). With a 1/3 of his stack in, if you're going to play you may as well shove in and hope he makes a weak call. If he has you beat, make a mental note about a very strange overbet by him when you've shown absolutely no strength at all in this hand, so you won't fall for it again. I really really doubt he had you beat, though.
One last thing to think about. You say that you didn't want to put 1/2 your chips in on TPTK this early in the tournament (and obviously your live play greatly differs from your online play, where you have no problem re-reraising me half your stack with bottom pair ... but I digress), but there's a problem with your thought process here, and not that you'd really be playing for your stack if you were to raise. The thing is, its not about what you have (TPTK), its about what he has, and do you have it beat. From my read you almost certainly do.
If you had good reason (i.e. you've seen him do it many times) to actually believe that he'd overbet a monster like this when you've shown absolutely no strength (in which case it'd be much much better for him to make a small bet, trying to suck you in), then that'd be a fine reason to fold. But you shouldn't be folding because you're scared to put a lot of chips in early, it should be because you think you're likely beat.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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I agree with Michael. I don't know that I'd push, but that could be because I'd rather leave myself with a chance to stay in if I'm reading the situation wrong. In any case, I think folding was wrong. I even like calling better than folding here, but again, could be that I'm too passive.
- Jeffrey
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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I agree that I like calling better than folding as well. I say I may as well push because I'm almost certainly calling on the turn if he shoves then, as my call on the flop along with my read basically pot commits me. Plus, the pot is plenty big enough to take down now. If you have the best hand, there's no reason to try and slowplay it, and you're also more likely to get a weak call from him after he's put so much of his stack in. Finally, just calling is also basically giving him two free cards to hit a set (if he had a pocket pair like KK) or two pair as well, since you're out of position and I'm guessing that by calling you're checking to him on the turn, where he'd likely check behind you if he has the weak hand that you put him on.
So yeah, calling beats folding as I think you're the big favorite here, but thinking it through more I believe raising all in is much much better than just calling.
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MyRedemption
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 12
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doesn't the saying go...
If your gonna call, you might as well bet.
good one to listen to, especially in a situation like this one, only time maybe not is playing the suited connectors trying to hit something.
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Molinero
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In The General Vicinity of Dallas
Posts: 230
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Molinero
If Lefou's opponent is who I think it is, I think you guys have given him too much credit. He has not the wit to think of a check-raise nor the will to execute it.
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BTW, it was a different player than I had thought.
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"We thought you was a toad!"
-- O Brother Where Art Thou?
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by michael1123
If Lefou was in the SB and this guy was in the BB, Lefou acted first preflop and checked to him.
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Yes, this struck me as a good spot for ME to checkraise. But the bet that came out was so big it looked like opp was not the slightest bit worried.
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Originally Posted by michael1123
The thing is, its not about what you have (TPTK), its about what he has, and do you have it beat. From my read you almost certainly do.
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Excellent point. I saw the bet as a set or 2pr trying to eliminate the straight draw in light of my minraise/call PF.
I was too focused on the hard lessons I've learned about falling in love with TPTK.
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michael1123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
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Yes, this struck me as a good spot for ME to checkraise. But the bet that came out was so big it looked like opp was not the slightest bit worried.
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Yes, but you also just minraised preflop, just called his raise, and just checked to him on the flop. You never gave him a reason to be worried that you had a strong ace.
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I was too focused on the hard lessons I've learned about falling in love with TPTK.
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I'm guessing, though, that on your big TPTK losses you're typically losing when you lead and they raise or they lead, you raise, and they reraise (at some point, maybe not all of this on the flop). You show strength and then they realize that they can get you to likely pay them off. Here you showed almost no strength, which would make me think that I got him right where I want him in this hand, if I were in your spot.
I would have had to think it over before acting though, as big overbets always throw me at first.
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