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Big pot TPTK versus shortstack 2NL

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JoeHaw

07-01-2009, 04:21 PM Post subject: Big pot TPTK versus shortstack 2NL

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

I had really just sat down, 5 hands in and no reads- my HUD actually wasn't even up because my trial was over and I was just testing it for one orbit to see what functionality I still had from HEM (which I had left open after the trial ended). Anyways, you can see the irony in this, because it was my last hand before I would have left the table since I was just testing HEM.

Sooooooooooooo.....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($0.16)
BB ($1.21)
Hero (UTG) ($1.98)
UTG+1 ($2.48)
MP1 ($1.50)
MP2 ($3.03)
MP3 ($0.96)
CO ($2.14)
Button ($0.93)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J

, A

Hero bets $0.08, UTG+1 calls $0.08, 4 folds, Button calls $0.08, SB raises to $0.16 (All-In), BB calls $0.14, Hero calls $0.08, UTG+1 calls $0.08, Button calls $0.08

Calling the 8c for 56c was pretty trivial, right? AJs UTG isn't too loose, is it?

Flop: ($0.82) 5

, 5

, J

(5 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 2 folds

I don't see how I can't call here... right? He'd have raised KK and AA pre, and I don't think I can put him exactly on QQ or JJ.

Turn: ($1.82) 3

(3 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets $0.24, Hero calls $0.24

I thought it was strange that he didn't go all in here- I KNEW I would call the river for the rest of his stack, so I think I'm stupid for not putting the rest of his tiny little stack in.

River: ($2.30) 10

(3 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets $0.31 (All-In), Hero calls $0.31

trivial

Total pot: $2.92 | Rake: $0.10

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Muzzard

07-01-2009, 04:24 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Cheshire, UK

Posts: 1,843

fold pre UTG.

Raise flop allin.
As played ship turn.
As you didnt ship turn call river obv.

JoeHaw

07-01-2009, 04:30 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

...yeah. seems kinda obvious now actually. I need to pay more attention to stacks

I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.
-Thomas Jefferson

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
-Thomas Edison

surviva316

07-01-2009, 04:41 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

surviva316 will become famous soon enough

well the shorter the stacks the BETTER AJ plays.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

littleogre

07-01-2009, 05:28 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

well he could show AA and you are getting the right odds to call. Having said that you should open fold AJ utg.

JoeHaw

07-01-2009, 05:30 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

well the shorter the stacks the BETTER AJ plays.

how so?

nish81

07-01-2009, 06:33 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

i'd actually play AJs UTG, not fold it. and raise on the flop.

I think shorter stacks benefit AJ because you get better reverse implied odds? something like that maybe

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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Cougar

07-01-2009, 07:42 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: Pennsylvania

Posts: 121

Had this discussion last night in IRC, curious whether regs/experts think opening AJs UTG is EV+?

Assume FR, 100BB stacks, balanced table conditions/dynamics and TAG image.

If yes, what about A10s?

------------------------
"...only time you stop learning is when your own ignorance & arrogance stops you from doing so!" -Martin Pritchett

caddie444

07-01-2009, 07:46 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2007

Location: constantly UTG

Posts: 723

caddie444 will become famous soon enough

AJ is an easy fold UTG even if its suited on all but the most tight tables

I remember reading somewhere that even some of the best players in the world have negative winnings with this specific hand when they play it UTG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzzard

fold pre UTG.

Raise flop allin.
As played ship turn.
As you didnt ship turn call river obv.

Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)

surviva316

07-01-2009, 08:01 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

some of the best players in the world play against some of the other best players in the world who 3b pre and crap like that.

ATs is an easy peezy lemon squeezy muck UTG through like MP3, but i think AJs is right on the cusp. not a FR player so not certain what side of the fence it falls on in a plain old jane old standard table and situation.

not sure we should be basing our starting hand ranges on what the pros can play profitably as opposed to considering how much value we stand to get on how many boards based on the continuing ranges of the players behind us.

at the risk of making spenda go apeshit, i'll answer the question about AJ playing better against shorties: it's SPR. it's much harder to play TPTK or TPGK OOP w 100bb effective stacks than say if effective stacks are the size of the pot as of the flop or even if a PFR puts villain all in (because our hand has great all in equity). hands like small PP's and SC's play much better with higher SPR's where semi bluffs are more effective and nut type hands like sets and flushes get paid better

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

surviva316

07-01-2009, 08:14 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

oh and as far as the HH is concerned there's no way you shouldn't shove over his bet on the turn. once you made the call on the flop you officially declared that you're playing for stacks barring a Q or K on the turn (maybe even with a K or Q on the turn but that's a whole other discussion). villain has <1/3 the pot left as of the turn so we're never folding TPTK and it only loses equity with every card that falls.

my play her is actually to min raise the flop, and i still lol whenever they just call with those measly five cents left over (i've even see villain fold to a turn five cent bet after calling the flop).

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

Parasurama

07-01-2009, 11:49 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: DMT

Posts: 820

lol why is AJs so much better than ATs? especially in EP

sarbox68

07-02-2009, 05:00 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parasurama

lol why is AJs so much better than ATs? especially in EP

'cause AJs beats ATs on a JTx rainbow flop silly......

No way in hell I'm playing AJs UTG in FR. What are we opening it for? Steal from late position not with 8 other people to act behind you. Suited connectors and lower pocket pairs (22-66) are better choices if you want to just open your UTG range up. The reverse implieds on a Axx flop suck, and are going to force us to make some crappy decisions for potentially our entire stack vs anything but the tightest vil. Jxx sucks too OOP, esp if a K or Q OC also hits. We'll flop a 2 card flush draw 11% of the time, and have to play that OOP, making it tougher to extract value if we actually make the flush. 66% of the time we'll be sitting after the flop with nothin' but A-high, very likely facing a vil with a pocket pair or something that connected with the board who's unlikely to fold to your cbet.

All generalizations, I know... vil and table specific, blah blah blah. But I'm not convinced folding AJs UTG at 6max is a huge mistake at the micros. I think it's a no-brainer FR.

sarbox68

07-02-2009, 05:04 PM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Oh, I forgot... we'll flop a flush .85% of the time. So that's something.......

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