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Big Pot Examples with AK Anyone?

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martindcx1e

11-13-2006, 07:41 AM Post subject: Big Pot Examples with AK Anyone?

#1 (permalink)

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Wondering if anyone has some good examples of winning big pots with AK after 3betting it preflop vs. fellow full stacks. I'd prefer HH's from 100NL games but if not that's cool I guess. I'm asking b/c it seems to me that after 3betting it and hitting your A or K on the flop that you won't get much action from other full stacks unless you are beat...am I wrong here? If so then show me please.

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Fnord

11-13-2006, 07:55 AM

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I like your thought process and you're getting close to where I'm at here.

The problem is that if you take hands like AK/AQ out of your 3-bet range any Axx flop pwns you.

Which is why sometimes I 3-bet them, sometimes I call with them. It depends on what I'm trying to do and what mistakes I'm trying to get into a position to exploit.

They're good cards, I play them, but my decision to go ape-shit aggro in a given hand has many other factors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

mcatdog

11-13-2006, 08:05 AM

#3 (permalink)

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I think your problem is probably that your re-raises define your hand too strongly, and you're starting to grasp the importance of mixing it up against opponents who don't suck. If you're only re-raising big pairs and AK, a decent player will pretty much know exactly what you have after he sees what you do on the flop and the turn. This is a bad thing.

So sometimes you should just call with AK, but sometimes re-raise it, and sometimes re-raise suited connectors and small pairs as well. That way you can take down a lot of pots with air on ace-high or king-high flops when your opponent folds to your obvious AK. By the same token, once they know that you don't have AK too often here, you might start getting more action on an ace-high flop when you do happen to have AK in a re-raised pot.

Miffed22001

11-13-2006, 08:17 AM

#4 (permalink)

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reraise on blind defence more, then watch the action come to you.

Fnord

11-13-2006, 08:20 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

reraise on blind defence more, then watch the action come to you.

All I'll add is that in the player pool we both play in there are a fair number of opponents who don't raise light from the CO/BN. Against them, a call is much more prudent. Don't give guys like that easy action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

dpe8598

11-13-2006, 07:36 PM

#6 (permalink)

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These are not all too big, but they are a few examples of playing AK aggressively.

Hand 1:
POKERSTARS GAME HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) -

Table 'Hydra III' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: hero ($226.80 in chips)
Seat 4: mind4mind ($186.65 in chips)
Seat 6: SNAlpha1 ($235 in chips)
Seat 7: TheTouni ($84 in chips)
Seat 8: iwillwin79 ($158.80 in chips)
Seat 9: villain ($232.10 in chips)
BloodyAces24 will be allowed to play after the button
mind4mind: posts small blind $1
SNAlpha1: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Ks As]
TheTouni: calls $2
iwillwin79: calls $2
villain: raises $7 to $9
hero: raises $11 to $20
mind4mind: folds
SNAlpha1: folds
00BrAKeU00 joins the table at seat #2
norshus joins the table at seat #5
TheTouni: folds
iwillwin79: folds
villain: calls $11
*** FLOP *** [2c 4c 5s]
villain: bets $35
hero: raises $45 to $80
villain said, "qq"
villain: folds
hero collected $114 from pot
BloodyAces24 is disconnected
hero: doesn't show hand

Hand 2:
POKERSTARS GAME HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) -

Table 'Theotes III' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: villain ($278.10 in chips)
Seat 2: NRLGolf15 ($203.65 in chips)
Seat 3: GeorgeEddie ($186.85 in chips)
Seat 4: pabs506 ($130.25 in chips)
Seat 5: hero ($207.65 in chips)
Seat 6: Apex-X ($283.05 in chips)
Seat 7: xValhalla1 ($200 in chips)
Seat 8: 4ALLTHECASH ($71.65 in chips)
Seat 9: SteveTJQKA ($167.15 in chips)
Apex-X: posts small blind $1
xValhalla1: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [As Ks]
4ALLTHECASH: calls $2
SteveTJQKA: folds
villain: raises $8 to $10
NRLGolf15: folds
GeorgeEddie: folds
pabs506: folds
hero: raises $10 to $20
Apex-X: folds
xValhalla1: folds
4ALLTHECASH: folds
villain: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [Qh 2c 2d]
villain: checks
hero: bets $30
villain: folds
hero collected $42.75 from pot
hero: doesn't show hand

Hand 3:
POKERSTARS GAME #6778257697: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/10/26 - 15:54:10 (ET)
Table 'Kajam' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: Shark7899 ($217.95 in chips)
Seat 4: psl86 ($264.90 in chips)
Seat 5: blkjck ($90.80 in chips)
Seat 6: villain ($203.80 in chips)
Seat 7: Shazmeister ($633 in chips)
Seat 8: Xicotl ($247 in chips)
Seat 9: hero ($171 in chips)
hero: posts small blind $1
Gabbaguu: is sitting out
Shark7899: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Ah Kd]
psl86: folds
blkjck: calls $2
villain: raises $8 to $10
Tom7531 joins the table at seat #1
Shazmeister: folds
Xicotl: folds
hero: raises $12 to $22
Shark7899: folds
blkjck: folds
blkjck is sitting out
villain: calls $12
*** FLOP *** [Ts 4s 7h]
hero: bets $40
villain: calls $40
*** TURN *** [Ts 4s 7h] [Ad]
hero: bets $50
villain: calls $50
*** RIVER *** [Ts 4s 7h Ad] [Kc]
hero: bets $59 and is all-in
villain: calls $59
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hero: shows [Ah Kd] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
villain: mucks hand (Had K10)
hero collected $343 from pot

Hand 1: Standard aggression w/ AK will get tight players w/ anything but a monster to fold. Notice that I could partially make this move, because I had straight outs as well as overpair outs. If he pushes me here, of course I fold.

Hand 2: Standard play w/ AK. You take down pot here on flop 2/3 of the time against anything but calling stations and very aware players. Note that I would usually raise a bit more than this preflop, but this particular player is very weak and I wanted a call and fold from him.

Hand 3: I posted this hand to demonstrate one great thing about AK, you actually have a lot of outs a lot of the time even when you hit air. 6 outs is as good as an open-ended straight draw, so you will see hands like this.

***These were all hands w/ positive outcomes, I'd also be happy to post some where you are beat, or it is close and you are probably beat, and I got away from the hand.

martindcx1e

11-13-2006, 07:41 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Wondering if anyone has some good examples of winning big pots with AK after 3betting it preflop vs. fellow full stacks. I'd prefer HH's from 100NL games but if not that's cool I guess. I'm asking b/c it seems to me that after 3betting it and hitting your A or K on the flop that you won't get much action from other full stacks unless you are beat...am I wrong here? If so then show me please.

how about when that happens dpe?

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dpe8598

11-13-2006, 07:44 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Wondering if anyone has some good examples of winning big pots with AK after 3betting it preflop vs. fellow full stacks. I'd prefer HH's from 100NL games but if not that's cool I guess. I'm asking b/c it seems to me that after 3betting it and hitting your A or K on the flop that you won't get much action from other full stacks unless you are beat...am I wrong here? If so then show me please.

how about when that happens dpe?

Oops, sorry, just ran a filter on preflop play w/ AK and posted a few hands. Working now, but will run another filter tonight when I get home. I will get you some hands. I know for a fact I have some really good ones from the last couple of days where I had AK vs AQ or AJ or I had AK vs bluffed pot.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 01:45 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Here are a couple of example where an A or K came on the flop.

Hand 1: Don't worry about the results on this hand, this is a great example of the 2 reasons it is good to play AK so strong preflop. #1 People like villain will weaken up w/ very strong hands, he had QQ, putting you on AA or KK. #2 You occasionally get crazy calls like those from Villain 2 where you have your opponent dominated. Also, by the way, villain #1 was a regular and he went on after the hand berating me for my stupid preflop aggression w/ such a weak holding. This kind of image is exactly what you want w/ regulars and is very nice....

Hand 2: I use this line a lot in big pots.

Hand #1
POKERSTARS GAME : HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) -
Table 'Propus III' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Ali_R_H ($655.35 in chips)
Seat 2: ChicagoMike6 ($140.60 in chips)
Seat 3: hero ($266.60 in chips)
Seat 5: villain ($208.70 in chips)
Seat 6: DanPoker222 ($176 in chips)
Seat 7: villain#2 ($237.75 in chips)
Seat 8: BluffnBeaver ($86.85 in chips)
Seat 9: TBuck19 ($156.60 in chips)
ChicagoMike6: posts small blind $1
hero: posts big blind $2
ColonelDan: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Kc Ah]
villain#1: raises $6 to $8
DanPoker222: folds
villain#2: calls $8
BluffnBeaver: folds
TBuck19: folds
Ali_R_H: calls $8
ChicagoMike6: folds
hero: raises $32 to $40
villain#1: calls $32
villain#2: calls $32
Ali_R_H: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kh 9d 2d]
hero: bets $80
villain#1: folds
villain#2: raises $117.75 to $197.75 and is all-in
hero: calls $117.75
*** TURN *** [Kh 9d 2d] [8s]
*** RIVER *** [Kh 9d 2d 8s] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hero: shows [Kc Ah] (a pair of Kings)
villain#2: shows [Kd 8d] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
villain#2 collected $521.50 from pot

Hand #2:
POKERSTARS GAME HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) -
Table 'Janus IV' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: SimPrez ($49 in chips)
Seat 3: Ivanovitch ($204.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Caponeny ($140.95 in chips)
Seat 5: reefer42083 ($50.35 in chips)
Seat 6: mayhem920 ($197 in chips)
Seat 7: villain ($194 in chips)
Seat 8: lousyrookie ($413.25 in chips)
Seat 9: hero ($231.90 in chips)
Caponeny: posts small blind $1
reefer42083: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Kd As]
potdosakis has returned
mayhem920: folds
villain: raises $8 to $10
lousyrookie: folds
hero: raises $10 to $20
SimPrez: folds
Ivanovitch: folds
Caponeny: folds
reefer42083: folds
villain: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [Tc 7d Ks]
villain: checks
hero: bets $20
villain: calls $20
*** TURN *** [Tc 7d Ks] [9d]
villain: checks
hero: checks
*** RIVER *** [Tc 7d Ks 9d] [6s]
villain: bets $52
hero: calls $52
*** SHOW DOWN ***
villain: shows [Qd Ac] (high card Ace)
hero: shows [Kd As] (a pair of Kings)
hero collected $184 from pot

Warpe

11-14-2006, 02:00 AM

#10 (permalink)

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um...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Hand 1:
villain: raises $7 to $9
hero: raises $11 to $20

Hand 2:
villain: raises $8 to $10
hero: raises $10 to $20

Hand 3:
villain: raises $8 to $10
hero: raises $12 to $22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Hand #2:
villain: raises $8 to $10
hero: raises $10 to $20

martindcx1e

11-14-2006, 02:05 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

um...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Hand 1:
villain: raises $7 to $9
hero: raises $11 to $20

Hand 2:
villain: raises $8 to $10
hero: raises $10 to $20

Hand 3:
villain: raises $8 to $10
hero: raises $12 to $22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Hand #2:
villain: raises $8 to $10
hero: raises $10 to $20

what am i missing here warpe? help me out pal...

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Warpe

11-14-2006, 02:10 AM

#12 (permalink)

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I can't see it ever being wrong to call these raises.

martindcx1e

11-14-2006, 02:22 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

I can't see it ever being wrong to call these raises.

oh you were pointing out the almost min-raises...gotcha

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dpe8598

11-14-2006, 02:28 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

I can't see it ever being wrong to call these raises.

I agree. I tend to throw in weak raises against weaker players and more aggressive raises against better players. I'm happy getting their call and instafold after not hitting their set than get the immediate fold.

Further, a lot of players fold immediately to the weak bet.

My goal in these hands is to rep a monster, isolate, and take it down. If they fold preflop thats fine too. When I say isolate I mean to one player. Thats why I raised to 40 in one of the above hands. Obviously I miscalulated, I expected Villain #1 to call, but not villain #2. Nonetheless, I love that hand.

Warpe

11-14-2006, 02:30 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

My goal in these hands is to rep a monster, isolate, and take it down.

Monsters don't minraise. If your goal is to isolate, pop it up to 3x<3-1/2x. I'm calling you all day with a pp here, and you're going to get more multi-way action than you really want from anyone with half a clue about pot odds.

jyms

11-14-2006, 04:49 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

I agree. I tend to throw in weak raises against weaker players and more aggressive raises against better players.

I think I would almost flip that. Better players can get away from a hand youwant to not give odds to the ones that will call, because even when they catch they lose, according to Sklansky anyway

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Renton

11-14-2006, 06:30 PM

#17 (permalink)

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I almost always threebet AK preflop, and I always go broke when I hit the flop, and my AK is a solid winner.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 07:00 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

My goal in these hands is to rep a monster, isolate, and take it down.

I absolutely 100% disagree w/ this at any level above .25/.50. 3-bets get a ton of respect at my 200 tables at pokerstars and very frequently get a fold around the table. When they do get called, it is for the reason you stated above, villain is set hunting. Nothing could make me more happy. Villain will happily fold right away the vast majority of the time when he doesnt hit his set on the flop. Furthermore, when villain does hit his set, I'm almost never paying him off.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 07:04 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

I agree. I tend to throw in weak raises against weaker players and more aggressive raises against better players.

I think I would almost flip that. Better players can get away from a hand youwant to not give odds to the ones that will call, because even when they catch they lose, according to Sklansky anyway

It depends on what we call a "bad" player. I want calls from weak players that will give away the hand on the flop. Against calling stations, I still want calls, but I play the hand much differently.

Against very good players, which I consider to be the type of player that will play back at me in a variety of different situations, I'd rather play big stack poker right away. Either raise them out preflop or play aggressively enough on the flop to make it not worth it to play back at me w/ air. Even aggressive good players don't like to play back at you for 50% of their chips on the flop very often, and when they do, I'm happy to fold.

Dislexsik

11-14-2006, 07:39 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I almost always threebet AK preflop, and I always go broke when I hit the flop, and my AK is a solid winner.

Same for me, but i don't always go broke when i hit.
AKo is my biggest winner.

Warpe

11-14-2006, 07:42 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Well, we can disagree all day and probably will, but if your preflop minreraise is called by a pp and he does hit his set, the mistake is yours, not his. With 100bb at 200nl, if I raise my 99 to $10 preflop and you reraise me to $20, you have $180 behind and I only have to call $10, which still gives me decent implied odds. Reraise me to $30-$35 though and now it's a fold.

Part of your objective preflop should be to fold out these hands, but you're just encouraging them to come along for the ride because it is correct for them to do so.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 07:50 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

I mean no disrespect, but this is getting sad. I don't have AA or KK! I am not giving you my 180$ that is left behind when you hit your set. I'm not sure what you don't understand. If I hit my A or K and you hit your set (which is even more unlikely than you just hitting your set) than you will get more of my money, but there is still no guarantee that you get paid off. I want you set hunting, because by being aggressive, but folding when you play back at me on those rare occasions that you hit your set, I'm taking away all of your implied odds.

If you only ever raise enough to push out opponents, than you are losing a lot of value against set hunters. Nuff said.

Renton

11-14-2006, 07:50 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I almost always threebet AK preflop, and I always go broke when I hit the flop, and my AK is a solid winner.

Same for me, but i don't always go broke when i hit.
AKo is my biggest winner.

theres no way AK is your biggest winner

And if you are laying TPTK in reraised pots regularly then you are making weak folds.

Warpe

11-14-2006, 07:58 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

My goal in these hands is to rep a monster...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

I don't have AA or KK!

You don't see the contradiction here?

nvm. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 08:06 PM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

My goal in these hands is to rep a monster...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

I don't have AA or KK!

You don't see the contradiction here?

nvm. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

No, I don't. I'm saying I dont have a hand like AA or KK that pays off a set. I have a hand that only maybe pays off a set when I hit top pair on the flop. I I I agree though, we could argue forever.

Renton

11-14-2006, 08:08 PM

#26 (permalink)

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dpe, i think your reasoning is flawed here.

First of all, you aren't good enough to lay down big overpairs and TPTK with AK in reraised pots. I know it. The reason I know it is because no one is good enough. These hands are good way too often to be making laydowns ever.

Let me get this straight, villain raises UTG and you minreraise on the button with your reraising range (which I assume to be JJ+ AQ AK). He calls and the flop is T84.

You continuation bet the flop and he raises with his flopped set of 8's. Sure you are getting away with AK and AQ here, but thats only half your range. Are you releasing JJ? QQ? You have JJ and the most optimal flop for you comes, and you are going to bet/fold? Ok lets say you call him on the flop, now its the turn and half your stack is in. Are you going to fold an overpair with half your stack in?

The moral of the story is that you were able to get away from 1/2 your range on the flop, but got stacked the other half of the time. Villain called preflop getting 20:1 IO and flopped a set 1/8 of the time, stacking you half the time he flopped a set. 1. Call minreraise with pair. 2. ???????????? 3. PROFIT!

So in other words, they do have good implied odds against you. The min-reraise is a terrible play. Here's what it does:

1. It says "I have a top 2% hand." This aids the villain in hand reading. He knows that you have one of 5 or 6 hands.

2. It doesn't build the pot very well, allowing villain to get away after the flop easier for the large percentage of the times you get a favorable flop with JJ+, and the 30% of the time you hit the flop with AK.

3. It allows villain to call getting >20:1 on your stack. Now, sure, he isn't stacking you EVERY TIME he flops a set, but he IS stacking you a lot when he flops a set. Probably enough to make his call preflop profitable. This means that the minreraise, while it adds money to the pot while you are good, its actually -EV for you. Smooth calling is a much better play if you are gonna get tricky.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 08:15 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

First of all, you aren't good enough to lay down big overpairs and TPTK with AK in reraised pots. I know it. The reason I know it is because no one is good enough. These hands are good way too often to be making laydowns ever.

I'm communicating poorly, I'm almost never laying down here. However, w/ an in-position check on the turn, I can frequently keep this pot manageable. If opponent check raises me or even calls a big flop bet I'm suspicious. I want to get in some more money, but I'd rather keep it manageable. This frequently works, because opponent is worried that I have KK on A high board or QQ on K high board and opponent will value river rather than push a lot of times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Let me get this straight, villain raises UTG and you minreraise on the button with your reraising range (which I assume to be JJ+ AQ AK). He calls and the flop is T84. You continuation bet the flop and he raises with his flopped set of 8's.

I fold to his reraise w/out a read, easy. This is the reason this continuation bet is most profitable against set hunters, because they tell me when they have there set. I hate when I get played back at w/ air here, because I fold a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

The moral of the story is that you were able to get away from 1/2 your range on the flop, but got stacked the other half of the time. Villain called preflop getting 20:1 IO and flopped a set 1/8 of the time, stacking you half the time he flopped a set. 1. Call minreraise with pair. 2. ???????????? 3. PROFIT!

You are way wrong here. He only stacks me when he flop a set AND I flop top pair.

This happens MUCH less likely than just flopping a set. Furthermore, he never gets more than a continuation out of me when I hit air.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 08:21 PM

#28 (permalink)

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Also, lets make it clear that I am not against big reraises (3X to 4X bet) at all. In fact, this is stronger poker in my opinion and more likely to give profit. Nonetheless, against set hunters, of which the poker world is full now, I think you can make a lot of money by reeling them in preflop and outplaying them postflop by reading their very transparent post flop set hunting moves.

This is why I said against better players that are more likely to play back at me, I am much less likely to rereaise less.

Dislexsik

11-14-2006, 08:43 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: On the grind

Posts: 832

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I almost always threebet AK preflop, and I always go broke when I hit the flop, and my AK is a solid winner.

Same for me, but i don't always go broke when i hit.
AKo is my biggest winner.

theres no way AK is your biggest winner

And if you are laying TPTK in reraised pots regularly then you are making weak folds.

I have to add that i have new database since i use PT instead of PO and AK is my biggest winner so far...and whats wrong with not going broke everytime i hit?Where did i say i lay down TPTK regulary in reraised pots?

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 09:01 PM

#30 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

It allows villain to call getting >20:1 on your stack.

One last thing, I could care less about villains odds. Maybe he is getting a good price, maybe he isn't. I know I'm going into the hand investing 10:1. Thats what I care about. I know villain shouldn't consider the money he has behind in his decision, but that doesn't effect my decision.

I am investing 10:1 and villain flops a set WHEN I flop top pair about 3 to 4% of the time. That makes me happy.

benny999

11-14-2006, 09:09 PM

#31 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,567

dpe, u do this with more than JJ+, AK? if so I think it's a real good strategy vs unobservant set-mining types as long as ur not doing it all the time...

Don't you guys usually put an unknown on AA/KK when they mini reraise pre flop?

zook

11-14-2006, 09:10 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

One last thing, I could care less about villains odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Limit games are one tab over.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 09:12 PM

#33 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

dpe, u do this with more than JJ+, AK? if so I think it's a real good strategy vs unobservant set-mining types as long as ur not doing it all the time...

I agree and on occasion I will open up the 3-bet range even more depending on the player.

benny999

11-14-2006, 09:19 PM

#34 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,567

cool...I think the key is having a real wide 3bet range, but then it would be very +ev.

Warpe

11-14-2006, 09:35 PM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

Don't you guys usually put an unknown on AA/KK when they mini reraise pre flop?

I put them on a strong but not enormous hand that's afraid of getting too committed and will probably fold if I pushed them hard enough.

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 09:38 PM

#36 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

Don't you guys usually put an unknown on AA/KK when they mini reraise pre flop?

I put them on a strong but not enormous hand that's afraid of getting too committed and will probably fold if I pushed them hard enough.

I think thats a strong read, but keep it limited to aware players. A lot of unknowns play AA/KK this way.

Renton

11-14-2006, 10:23 PM

#37 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I fold to his reraise w/out a read, easy.

nope

dpe8598

11-14-2006, 10:56 PM

#38 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I fold to his reraise w/out a read, easy.

nope

Your going to call his reraise on the flop after he called your preflop reraise and is now reraising your continuation? I think thats spew.

I will definitely make that move against a player I'm familiar w/ that is trying to steal my pot, but against a set hunter thats an instafold or even unknown tight type thats an instafold for me.

Renton

11-15-2006, 01:42 AM

#39 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

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if you are folding JJ+ to a raise from a so called set-hunter, you are losing irreparable value

dpe8598

11-15-2006, 04:13 AM

#40 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 261

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

if you are folding JJ+ to a raise from a so called set-hunter, you are losing irreparable value

We miscommunicated. I was referring specifically to AK hand where you have air.

DaNutsInYoEye

11-15-2006, 06:26 AM

#41 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 1,921

We actually had this discussion with Renton earlier in IRC. What you have to realize is that when you 3-bet with AK pre-flop and are just called, if the flop come A or K high and the board it otherwise dry then you almost always either have them crushed or they have you crushed. Normally you're way ahead though. Because of that it often pays to play your hand deceptively. In the case that you are in fact that one that is dominated it can also keep the pot under control and helps minimize the damage.

Generally speaking, a range that just calls 3-bets pre-flop is something like TT-QQ, AK, and sometimes AQ/other. For the sake of my argument I'm going to say that TT-QQ comprise the largest percentage. If you flop and A or K against this range you have a strangle hold on the hand. The problem is though that it's often hard to get action from such hands. This is why, when used appropriately, deception can be so powerful. Give them reason to think their hand might be good.

The better you become at putting people on correct ranges the more value you'll be able to extract from your opponents. It's counter intuitive, but betting/raising is not always the best line when you have the best hand. It all goes back to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($160.20)
Button ($245.85)
Hero ($405.05)
BB ($394)
UTG ($471.95)
MP ($451.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, A

.
UTG raises to $12, MP calls $12, 2 folds, Hero raises to $54, 1 fold, UTG calls $42, MP folds.

Flop: ($124) 7

, 9

, K

(2 players)
Hero bets $60, UTG calls $60.

Turn: ($244) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $76, Hero raises to $200, UTG calls $124.

River: ($644) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $91.05 (All-In), UTG calls $91.05.

Final Pot: $826.10

Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Ad (one pair, kings).
UTG has Qh Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $826.10.

FullTiltPoker Game #1101299042: Table Kim (6 max) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:20:36 ET - 2006/10/14
Seat 1: JCable8 ($77.60)
Seat 2: funeralpyre ($405)
Seat 3: nymits10 ($419.60)
Seat 4: Zeus9 ($113.50)
Seat 5: NutsInYoEye ($437)
Seat 6: outs64 ($306.45)
NutsInYoEye posts the small blind of $2
outs64 posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NutsInYoEye [Kc Ah]
JCable8 folds
funeralpyre raises to $8
nymits10 calls $8
Zeus9 folds
NutsInYoEye raises to $36
outs64 has 15 seconds left to act
outs64 calls $32
funeralpyre folds
nymits10 calls $28
*** FLOP *** [Kh Ks 4c]
NutsInYoEye bets $60
outs64 calls $60
nymits10 folds
*** TURN *** [Kh Ks 4c] [3d]
NutsInYoEye checks
outs64 bets $105
Zeus9 adds $7
NutsInYoEye raises to $341, and is all in
outs64 calls $105.45, and is all in
NutsInYoEye shows [Kc Ah]
outs64 shows [Jc Th]
Uncalled bet of $130.55 returned to NutsInYoEye
*** RIVER *** [Kh Ks 4c 3d] [Qs]
NutsInYoEye shows three of a kind, Kings
outs64 shows a pair of Kings
NutsInYoEye wins the pot ($653.90) with three of a kind, Kings
outs64 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $656.90 | Rake $3
Board: [Kh Ks 4c 3d Qs]
Seat 1: JCable8 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: funeralpyre folded before the Flop
Seat 3: nymits10 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Zeus9 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: NutsInYoEye (small blind) showed [Kc Ah] and won ($653.90) with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 6: outs64 (big blind) showed [Jc Th] and lost with a pair of Kings

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($371.65)
CO ($537.65)
Hero ($495)
SB ($586.10)
BB ($557.45)
UTG ($66.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K

, A

.
UTG calls $4, 1 fold, CO raises to $12, Hero raises to $44, 2 folds, UTG folds, CO calls $32.

Flop: ($98) T

, K

, 4

(2 players)
CO bets $44, Hero calls $44.

Turn: ($186) 4

(2 players)
CO bets $94, Hero calls $94.

River: ($374) 2

(2 players)
CO bets $154, Hero calls $154.

Final Pot: $682

Results below:
CO has Tc Ac (two pair, tens and fours).
Hero has Kd Ah (two pair, kings and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins $682.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($470)
Button ($386)
SB ($337)
BB ($124.20)
UTG ($415.90)
MP ($404.10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

, A

.
UTG raises to $14, MP calls $14, Hero raises to $52, 3 folds, UTG calls $38, MP folds.

Flop: ($124) 8

, 9

, K

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($124) K

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $74, UTG calls $74.

River: ($272) 6

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $194, UTG calls $194.

Final Pot: $660

Results in below:
UTG has Jd Jh (two pair, kings and jacks).
Hero has Kc Ad (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $660.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($400)
Hero ($699.65)
BB ($1447.10)
UTG ($266)
MP ($110.55)
CO ($305.35)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

, K

.
2 folds, CO raises to $12, 1 fold, Hero raises to $48, 1 fold, CO calls $36.

Flop: ($100) 8

, J

, 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $62, CO calls $62.

Turn: ($224) K

(2 players)
Hero bets $200, CO calls $195.35 (All-In).

River: ($619.35) 5

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $619.35

Results below:
Hero has Ah Ks (one pair, kings).
CO has Ts As (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins $619.34.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($225.95)
UTG+1 ($278.60)
MP1 ($154.15)
Hero ($298.40)
MP3 ($152.75)
CO ($266.25)
Button ($197)
SB ($78)
BB ($198)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A

, K

.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $15, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $11.

Flop: ($33) 7

, K

, T

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $12, Hero raises to $40, UTG+1 calls $28.

Turn: ($113) 6

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $40, Hero raises to $150, UTG+1 raises to $223.6, Hero calls $73.60.

River: ($560.20) 3

(2 players)

Final Pot: $560.20

Results below:
UTG+1 has Ks Qs (one pair, kings).
Hero has Ah Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $560.20.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($447)
UTG ($551.10)
MP ($768)
CO ($410.25)
Button ($150.45)
SB ($228)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, A

.
1 fold, MP calls $4, CO raises to $16, 1 fold, SB calls $14, Hero raises to $55, MP folds, CO folds, SB calls $39.

Flop: ($130) 5

, A

, 5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($130) 3

(2 players)
SB bets $72, Hero raises to $188, SB calls $101 (All-In).

River: ($491) A

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $491

Results below:
SB has Qh Qd (two pair, aces and queens).
Hero has Ks Ad (full house, aces full of fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $491.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($367.90)
UTG ($560.05)
MP ($600)
CO ($266)
Hero ($687)
SB ($125)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K

, A

. MP posts a blind of $6.
1 fold, MP (poster) raises to $18, 1 fold, Hero raises to $52, 2 folds, MP calls $34.

Flop: ($113) A

, J

, Q

(2 players)
MP bets $45, Hero calls $45.

Turn: ($203) 6

(2 players)
MP bets $100, Hero raises to $222, MP folds.

Final Pot: $525

Results below:
No showdown. Hero wins $525.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

DLC11

11-15-2006, 09:06 AM

#42 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Indiana

Posts: 71

Thanks for posting that, Nuts. I pretty much play AK the same way, except for the last hand. Now I don't know what kind of read you had on Hero there, but more times than not I fold AK to a re-raise.

Think big, or suck.

Warpe

11-15-2006, 03:55 PM

#43 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

Nice post DaNuts.

zook

11-15-2006, 04:47 PM

#44 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

I'm not sure what's deceptive about Hands 1 & 2... the fact that you lead the flop for 1/2-2/3 pot instead of 3/4-full? Villains are just fish, imo.

I really like Hands 4 & 7 though. I'll have to start thinking about that kind of line.

Beck

12-17-2006, 08:33 PM

#45 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 410

4 and 7 are the nuts

-Beck

Irisheyes

12-17-2006, 09:17 PM

#46 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: over there

Posts: 3,708

Check the flop alot when you hit.

Beck

12-18-2006, 03:28 AM

#47 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 410

i don't know, but I think checking the flop sometimes when u hit will create a bit more confusion as to what you are holding, sometimes giving you a free card when you don't hit. I thunk it is something I should do every now and then

I don't know?

-Beck

DaNutsInYoEye

12-18-2006, 04:32 AM

#48 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 1,921

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beck

As part of a balanced strategy you should somtimes be checking. At lower levels against random donks it's probably not very important because the average player doesn't pay much attention. As you progress to higher levels and against people you regularly play with it becomes more important to mix up your play.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

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