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Betting your flush draw, getting re-raised.

  
 
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Jupit3r
Old 01-23-2007, 05:42 PM     Post subject: Betting your flush draw, getting re-raised. #1 (permalink)  
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I understand it's frequently ok to bet a flush draw from OOP. When it's ok? I've noticed many decent players make a re-raise with TPGK if they noticed a flush/straight draw on the board. In what situations you would want to call the re-raise (please give me an example about odds or something)?. What about after calling that re-raise? Keep on firing if I missed the draw? What about if I hit the draw, is it ok to attempt a c/r or is it too obvious?

Just a couple of questions.
"I'm conservative, but I'm not a nut about it.", George H. W. Bush
 
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Slash
Old 01-23-2007, 07:38 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupit3r
I understand it's frequently ok to bet a flush draw from OOP. When it's ok? I've noticed many decent players make a re-raise with TPGK if they noticed a flush/straight draw on the board. In what situations you would want to call the re-raise (please give me an example about odds or something)?. What about after calling that re-raise? Keep on firing if I missed the draw? What about if I hit the draw, is it ok to attempt a c/r or is it too obvious?

Just a couple of questions.
I dont like betting my draws unless I opened with a raise pre-flop, or I have position.
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zook
Old 01-23-2007, 09:32 PM #3 (permalink)  
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This is so dependent on reads, your image and the board, but I'll give it a shot...

First of all, I like betting draws oop, HU (or even 3-way) for three reasons 1) the flop may not have hit your opponent and you could take it down there, 2) it builds the pot if you draw does hit, and 3) you'd bet a set in this situation (and often TPGK/TPTK) so it's good for balance.

As for what to do when raised... it depends. If it's a min-raise, it's a pretty clear call b/c he's giving you odds to draw. If it's a man-sized raise from a solid opponent you should usually fold and occasionally push. Only push if there's a decent amount of money in the pot already AND you think there's a good chance he'll fold. (As a side note, you should push over a raise with a set on a drawy board too, opps will never give you credit.) You could consider calling a big raise without proper odds to draw if your opponent is bad and won't be able to fold if your draw hits, but this isn't often the case. Straights are less obvious than flushes, so you often have better implied odds with them.

In those rare cases you do call a raise... if you miss your draw, I often bet again vs. opponents capable of folding. Again, you might play a set this way and it looks extremely strong. If villain already thinks you're FoS though, be careful with this. Against a calling station or low-stakes player incapable of folding TPGK, check and hope he gives you odds to draw on the river. If you hit the draw, once again, it depends. If you have an aggro/bluffing image or villain is passive, leading is best. If villain is aggro you can c/c or c/r.

Overall, playing draws OOP sucks. It's easy to spew with them and hard to extract value when they hit. That's why I dump sc's and suited aces in EP and open them for raises in MP and later if I play them at all. And I rarely call raises with them without position.
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Jupit3r
Old 01-24-2007, 06:58 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Overall, playing draws OOP sucks. It's easy to spew with them and hard to extract value when they hit. That's why I dump sc's and suited aces in EP and open them for raises in MP and later if I play them at all. And I rarely call raises with them without position.
This is what I think too. I generally play with lower SCs and AXs only from LP. I decided to start the thread after I raised with KJs from BB, and got 1 solid caller from EP. Board was something like As7s2d, giving me a nut flush draw. I lead 2/3 pot, got raised. I called, didn't hit the flush. Now I decided to bet 1/2 pot (which I think was a mistake, shoulda been more if any). Dude calls it, still didn't hit my draw. Anyways... I put him on AX and didn't think he would fold to a river bluff so I chickened out and checked the river. The guy checks too and shows AQ, giving him TPGK.

The thing is, I almost always bet my draws OOP. Now I'm gonna change this and almost always check them and see how it goes. And when I decide to be aggro with 'em draws I'm gonna fire it big time.
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Slash
Old 01-24-2007, 07:02 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Yes sorry my first post wasnt very detailed. But I agree with zook 100% im just starting this cash game stuff.
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Miffed22001
Old 01-24-2007, 07:17 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 lead your draws oop because youd lead your sets oop and 3bet all in.
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Jupit3r
Old 01-24-2007, 09:19 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Are you saying pushing after opp's re-raise can be +EV if you're the PF raiser? There's a chance he has a made set unless the flop is all painted, because then he would've raised his PP. Is it +EV because the probability to flop a set with PP is only 11.8% and fold equity adds some more to your cause? If it really is I'll be happy to push in this kind of situation if there's enough in the pot and the stack.

Could someone give me an example of the reasoning involved in the following situation:

NL25
Stacks are $25.
Hero has KJ.
Hero is BB.
2 folds
Villain calls $0.25.
3 folds
Opp1 calls $0.25.
2 folds
Hero raises $1 to $1.50
Villain calls.
Opp1 folds.

FLOP:

($3.5) A72
Hero bets $2.5, Villain raises to $7.5, Hero ??? (pot is $11)

Would you push, call or fold here? Villain is 18/9 and solid. I'd like some math too, please. Sorry that you have to bend the iron for me here. I want to understand the topic fully.
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martypalin
Old 01-24-2007, 09:41 AM #8 (permalink)  
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It depends if you want to GAMBLE!!! or not...I'd personally keep calling because you can clean him out if you hit and just forget it if you don't - you could always get runner runner KK aswell
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zook
Old 01-24-2007, 04:17 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupit3r
The thing is, I almost always bet my draws OOP. Now I'm gonna change this and almost always check them and see how it goes. And when I decide to be aggro with 'em draws I'm gonna fire it big time.
While I did say that playing draws OOP sucks, I still think you should bet them.

As for your example, it's a close one, but I like a push b/c a solid opponent is capable of laying down AQ/AJ here. But before you start going hogwild pushing draws remember that you're behind here 95% of the time, so you're rooting for a fold. If you have no fold equity, this is a bad play. Take notes on your opponents so you know whether they'll stack off with TPGK. And against opponents likely to call, play 77 the exact same way on this board.
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