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Betting before flop?

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lowriders

10-22-2004, 05:57 AM Post subject: Betting before flop?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Calgary, AB, Canada

Posts: 9

I'm very new to texas hold'em or poker for that matter but playing with a group of friends recently I came to realize that I have some talent at reading people. Out of all the games I've tried a stab at, so far texas hold'em is my favorite.

Anyway, sorry first post, back on topic.

Playing on internet tournaments I'm finding it hard or even impossible to bet or imagine what can happen pre-flop. I've tried a couple scenarios from the strategies but they don't seem to work for me right yet. I get an AK suited and I still seem to lose. Yet I get a 2,8 and just go with it and win the biggest pot of the night! I know some might be dumb luck. But why bet before the flop if you don't know what's ahead?

Thanks,

Jay

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Humphrind

10-22-2004, 06:04 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

It's all experience. You can start picking up on what is more playable enough as you get more experienced playing poker.

For now, it's best to use blind faith. And continue reading people like their cards are inside out.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

DavSimon

10-22-2004, 12:45 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: Mount Holly, NC

Posts: 813

DavSimon is an unknown quantity at this point

Another reason to bet/raise before the flop with a good starting hand is to limit the field you are competing against. A 3-4x BB raise pre-flop with AKs should eliminate everything but the middle pocket pairs, middle to higher suited connectors and the over-cards with good kickers. High pocket pairs will probably reraise you (hands like AA,KK, sometimes QQ) Gives you an idea, if your read is correct - where you stand and how you should proceed post-flop

Krapp

10-22-2004, 01:55 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 313

Betting before the flop:
1. Limit number of opps. Your chances of winning decrease significantly when more opps are in. If you have an equal chance of winning HtoH, your 50%. If its 3-way, your 33%... If its 4-way, your 25%. You generally only want to raise hands that are strong by them selves (e.g. AA, KK, QQ, AK, etc)

2. Increase size of pot. If you are holding AA preflop. Your job is to get as much money in the pot and limit the field. AA HtoH is about 80% favorite. With more people in the hand, you could drop down to even money or less to win. You generally want to build the pot if you believe you have the best hand or drawing to the best hand.

3. Preempt opps. Opps that might normally stay in for a call might fold to a raise. Again any raising should be backed-up with good cards. If you raise/bluff frequently, you will lose in the long-run

4. Take aggressive posture. Being the aggressor is generally a good position.

5. Buy a free card. It is typical if you raise before the flop (and in position), your opps will tend to check to you ("check to the raiser"). You have the option to bet or check and get a free card. E.g. You have AK and are the dealer. You raise preflop (33% your will hit a pair on the flop, 50% you will hit a pair on the river), the flop drops w/o a A or K, opps check to you. Now with your preflop raise you have the option to see the 4th card or semi-bluff the pot.

Statistically, certain preflop cards have higher percent chance to win (when HtoH). E.g. 23o is about 35% HtoH and 20% in 3-way vs AA is about 80%+ HtoH and 60%+ in 3-way. In these scenarios, you generally want to raise preflop when you have statistically strong hand.

lowriders

10-22-2004, 04:16 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Calgary, AB, Canada

Posts: 9

hmm...it makes sense.

I see the point especially of getting rid of more people to have a better chance of winning.

I guess I was in the frame of thinking that the more staying in the bigger the pot. But therefore less chance to take the hand.

Is there ever a time where it's more favorable to keep the players in other than trying to make them fold?

Some make ridiculous raises at first and everyone just folds and they end up getting .75cents (what's the point?)

Miggo

10-22-2004, 06:28 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 153

I'm new too, but I'll take a stab at this one. If I'm wrong then people will correct me and I'll learn too. The way I understand it is when you have good starting hands AA/KK/QQ/AKs/JJ you want to bet to thin out the people that have outside chances at straight and flush draws.

When you have mid level suited connectors T9s/98s/87s/76s you want to see a flop for cheap because you're trying to draw a flush or straight. So, I guess because you're not betting/raising it will keep more people in the pot.

I don't have a clue what to do with mid to low pocket pairs, I always lose money with those.

Also table position play a big part too, but I don't understand that enough to write about it. Am I close with this way of thinking or not?

Radashack

10-22-2004, 08:38 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 522

I'll adress the mid to low pocket pairs for ya.
Mid to low pocket pair basic strategy: Limp or call to see a flop if you hit trips you play the hand if your pair is higher then the highest card on board play the hand. If neither of these are true fold. You have a 12% chance to hit trips so don't expect it to happen all the time. Again this is a basic strategy.

melinda27

10-22-2004, 09:15 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 165

The times i like to have more people in the pot is when i have strong suited connectors like KQ, or QJ. I know what i'm looking for in a flop and its not top pair and I can get away from it easily but I can also take down a big pot with a straight or a flush. You just have to know what you're looking for and not get married to a hand when there are alot of people in the pot. If there are 4 or 5 people in the pot then my pair of jacks with a queen kicker is probably junk, but if i can flop a straight or flush draw and make money off of the AQ who might turn 2 pair and pay me off then its worth it.

LeFou

10-22-2004, 09:36 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 2,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowriders

Is there ever a time where it's more favorable to keep the players in other than trying to make them fold?

Some make ridiculous raises at first and everyone just folds and they end up getting .75cents (what's the point?)

With great cards you will do Both things:
1) Blast away at the blinds trying to weed people out/ take the lead position
2) Slowplay, hoping to ambush people who are out there betting so-so hands.

Do both of them, switching randomly between strategies. It is the essence of poker. Try and base your switching on something concrete and unpredictable -- otherwise you don't realize it but you're switching out of frustration with the current strategy.

-switch when someone at the next table lights a cigarette
-switch when you get one of those spontaneous erections
-be creative

lowriders

10-24-2004, 09:58 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Calgary, AB, Canada

Posts: 9

So percentage wise. How often do you decide to fold at a no limit game?

Humphrind

10-24-2004, 10:36 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowriders

So percentage wise. How often do you decide to fold at a no limit game?

Depending on the table, my cards, and more. I will play about 20% - 30% of my hands. Folding the other 70-80%.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

lowriders

10-25-2004, 04:18 PM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Calgary, AB, Canada

Posts: 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humphrind

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowriders

So percentage wise. How often do you decide to fold at a no limit game?

Depending on the table, my cards, and more. I will play about 20% - 30% of my hands. Folding the other 70-80%.

See that's where I think I'm really at fault. You watch hold'em on tv and you see these guys making a lot of plays and you think that they're playing almost every second or third hand. But you forget about the hours and hours of playing and they have to condense that into just one hour of major hands.

I think I might have to not be so aggressive and hold back on some hands.

murphyz

10-25-2004, 04:26 PM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: London, UK

Posts: 34

Likewise, I also fold the majority of hands, playing the likes of AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and those that are a combination of both. Lower pocket pairs and links, suited or not, depends on where I am on the table and how many have folded before me. I'll sometimes just try to limp to the flop on the lesser hands and see if I get lucky, but if someone before me posts 3xBB I will fold.

Mxx

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