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Bet Sizes - Help please

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Jamjoe

01-27-2008, 10:13 PM Post subject: Bet Sizes - Help please

#1 (permalink)

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Hi - I was looking for advice on general bet sizes for post flop play. Typically if im first raising i raise 3xbb with all hands (read that this is better as its harder to put me on a hand, as opposed to varying raise amount with hands)

then post flop - if i hit the flop well im usually betting 70% to pot sized bet and if i miss the flop i bet around 30-50% pot sized and check the turn if i get called and miss again.

Any advice on this would be great thanks.

PS. Im playing $10NL

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spoonitnow

01-27-2008, 10:21 PM Post subject: Re: Bet Sizes - Help please

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Apply this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamjoe

(read that this is better as its harder to put me on a hand, as opposed to varying raise amount with hands)

To this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamjoe

if i hit the flop well im usually betting 70% to pot sized bet and if i miss the flop i bet around 30-50% pot sized

Preflop Raising: If you're first in, 3-4x is fine, albeit I'd prefer 4x at 10nl. If there are limpers before you, raise to 3-4x plus 1 bb for each limper. For example, if there are two limpers, raise to 5-6x. If you're reraising, raise to 2.5-3x the amount of their raise.

Flop Betting: If you were the pre-flop aggressor and want to bet the flop for whatever reason, generally 2/3rd's of the pot to the full size of the pot is good.

Turn and River Betting: It's rare that you'll want to bet less than half the pot if you're doing any betting at all.

That's my 90 second blurb on bet sizing. GL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

bode

01-27-2008, 10:23 PM

#3 (permalink)

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bode is an unknown quantity at this point

generally, raising 4x bb preflop is better. As for post flop, there really is no exact amount you should be betting. Sometimes betting 2/3-3/4 pot is best and sometimes betting the full pot is needed. As a general rule, betting 2/3-3/4 is best in most situations. I wouldnt bet 70% with made hands and 30-50% with missed hands because opps will pick up on this and always raise when you bet so small. Just as you said you raise 3xbb with all hands so its harder to put you on a hand pre, you should do the same postflop. Bet similar amounts on your c-bets when you hit and when you miss so you dont tip off your hand.

Look around at some of the HH's people post in the SHNL and FRNL forums and pay attention to the bet sizing for different situations.

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Jamjoe

01-27-2008, 10:33 PM Post subject: Thanks

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Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 68

Thanks for the quick replies - ill start fixing my flop bets to around 2/3 of pot - however here comes my next question. When is it good idea to bet the flop and when is it a bad idea?

eg. if im first to raise with AKs (spades) and flop comes something like

1) 2c 5d 8s
2) 2s 5s 8d
3) Qc 10d 6s

another scenario im troubled by is when i hold hands like A10
and flop comes QQ10

Hawk

01-27-2008, 10:43 PM

#5 (permalink)

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There are several threads recently about the topic of cbetting. You should check those out.

spoonitnow

01-27-2008, 11:05 PM

#6 (permalink)

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will641

01-28-2008, 01:33 AM

#7 (permalink)

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also you should make your bet sizes weighted towards how draw heavy/dry the board is.

E.G. 1. you raise .4 in the CO, and BB calls. pot is .85 and the board comes J 2 7 rainbow. he checks to you, you bet .6

2. you raise same amount, same caller, and the flop comes J T 7 two toned. you should probably bet .7-.8

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Chopper

01-28-2008, 02:19 AM Post subject: Re: Bet Sizes - Help please

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamjoe

then post flop - if i hit the flop well im usually betting 70% to pot sized bet and if i miss the flop i bet around 30-50% pot sized and check the turn if i get called and miss again.

everybody has already given great advice. i just want you to see this again and think about what you are allowing to happen to you.

are you allowing yourself to be exploited/read? how? how to fix? (hint: you mentioned in your main post, AND spoonitnow quoted it in his.

by only betting 1/2 the pot, or less, are you providing pot odds for all sorts of shit to chase you down and continue drawing against your "missed" hand?

what is your solution, now that you have identified a possible problem area?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

01-28-2008, 02:45 AM Post subject: Re: Thanks

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamjoe

eg. if im first to raise with AKs (spades) and flop comes something like
1) 2c 5d 8s
2) 2s 5s 8d
3) Qc 10d 6s

Depends on:
how many players saw the flop
your position
the position of the other players
any reads you have on other players.

but generally bet 2/3 pot here, especially if opps are weak. You would play pairs TT+/AK/AQ the same in each of these hands, right?

Robb

01-28-2008, 03:21 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

I tend to bet more when c-betting that when I'm betting for value. But I mix it up. I try never to c-bet less than 3/4 of the pot. If my cards suck so bad I can't bring myself to bet the extra quarter, folding might be good option.

Value bets I let wander between 60% and full pot. So sometimes when I flop a set I can pot it and get played back at. But c-bets at NL10 are sort one-and-done maneuvers. If you get played back at, folding is good option. So I try to bet enough that I know where I'm at.

If villain calls my4/5 pot c-bet with something worse than I've got, he's either WAY too fancy for NL10, or he's a big fish. Either way, I'll have his chips soon with ABC poker.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Chopper

01-28-2008, 04:05 AM Post subject: Re: Thanks

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamjoe

its a good idea to bet the flop when you think you can take it with no resistance, or are likely to be the best hand and worse hands will likely pay to see another card.

1) good
2) good
3) good

it is up to you to figure out WHY it is good in all three scenarios....its a different reason in all three. but, heres a bad one....

4) 6h 7h 8h w/ two players still to act.

see the difference?

and, your bottom pair of the paired board example? i bet it, too.

i am looking for reasons NOT to bet the flop when i have the initiative. and, i dont find a lot of reasons.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Andrew

01-28-2008, 04:14 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 210

Chopper, considering this thread is about correct bet sizes what's your opinion on people who minbet constantly? What's their reasoning behind it (if they have one) and what should be our reactions and feelings towards it happening ahead of us?

I thought that this would be good for Jamjoe as well as myself so he knows how to react if he isn't first to act.

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Robb

01-28-2008, 04:39 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

There have been several threads that have mentioned this. My view is that at NL10 on my site about 1 in 5 times the minbet means "milk a bit more out of my monster hand." The other 4 it means "mediocre hand in same zip code as flop, but not intimate with it."

My response was suggested by someone here (I forget who): fire back at them with a bet about the size of the original pot. I pick my spots when I find a villain who does, and try it a couple of times. See how they react. Pretty quickly, I know which type of bet it is. You have to spew some chips on the 1 in 5 that mean business, though, if no one else will play at them for you. So have SOME kind of value when you do it (or you'll feel kinda silly when you show down J high against a boat).

Chopper

01-28-2008, 05:39 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

its no secret here that i HATE the minraise. some are idiots. some are looking for action. notes will tell the difference. i dont know how much you should invest of your own money to find out. just be patient, and watch.

dont let them tilt you, but watch when they lay odds to draw....most times they do. and, dont forget what a raise, typically, means. it means, "i like my hand enough to raise with; therefore, i may very likely pay you off when you hit your card."

dont raise them out of anger. i have done that alot, and it doesnt pay, imo. just be patient and punish them when they raise like weeeenies.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Andrew

01-28-2008, 06:49 AM

#15 (permalink)

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I've pretty much gotten to the point where I've been treating the minraise as just another way of them saying "I check". I've seen pots ranging from $0.40-$2 and still finding some minbet into it.

Robb, I have been caught that way but about as rare as you said (1/5). At 2nl it seems to be a way of trying to take a pot down with a draw whilst building up a little bit more out there if they hit their card. Should I keep treating it like a "check" and calling (if I'm on a draw/set hunting on flop) and raising when I have something/wanting to take it down or should I start to treat these guys with more respect? (A huge leak still if I start to get cocky down here).

Will I have to change my reaction to the minbetters once I move up a level or two?

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Chopper

01-28-2008, 12:58 PM

#16 (permalink)

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no, minbetting and minraising will always be there. just use your notes to determine what it means, and exploit it.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Robb

01-28-2008, 08:50 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

no, minbetting and minraising will always be there. just use your notes to determine what it means, and exploit it.

Chopper's right.

BTW, I have found it even more rare for a player to both use the minraise on monster hands and for mediocre hands, but there are the occasional newbies who just don't know any better. About 90% of the time at NL10, the min-bet is EASILY exploitable because you basically know their hole cards after they make it. Like chop says, use your notes, and bet when you're draw has the odds or you're likely to be ahead.

One thing you haven't mentioned yet that's a problem with minbets is in multiway pots. I may know what the min-bet means heads up, but in multiway action a lot of people use it oop to weed out the villains who use the "check/fold" preaction buttons, or as a (very weak) blocking bet. THAT'S really freakin' annoying, because you have assess the hands yet to act and the minbet's meaning.

Just considering the minbet like a check in multiway pots can be really bad news, a lot more often than 1 times in 5. Of course, I hate multiway gang bangs anyway, so I try to raise preflop enough virtually all the time to get into heads up or, at worst, 3-way action post flop.

Andrew

01-28-2008, 09:21 PM

#18 (permalink)

Straight

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So is it best to raise/fold in a minbet orgy instead of just calling? That we have to treat the minbet (in a multi pot at least) as just a standard small raise and react accordingly to save ourselves from getting into trouble further down the road?

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Chopper

01-28-2008, 09:49 PM

#19 (permalink)

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it depends...lol.

truthfully, i tried (in my 45k breakeven stretch) to pound minbets and minraises. at this level, it is more trouble than its worth. if you have air, just fold. suck it up and practice discipline. it hurts, but its best.

however, when you have odds to draw...even to a gutshot or pp, i will call those minbets very liberally. all i need is a little bit of potential. sometimes even a backdoor nut flush or straight draw will get me to call those things. but you MUST have some potential, or its about the dumbest thing you can do...at lower stakes.

yes, many times its just someone hitting the "raise" button.

robb, you prolly need to learn to love multiway pots. flush draws, combos, baby straights, sets with flush draws up, are all examples of situations in which i LOVE having many, many customers. they provide such great drawing odds, and such great implied odds.

trying to bet so large, going with the theme of the OP, that you thin out callers just to make your post flop decisions easier...costs you money, imo.

i LOVE multi-way pots!! now, repeat that about 100 times and it may start to sink in. i'm not trying to be an ass, but in the right situations, multiway pots are the only way you will get paid well.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Andrew

01-28-2008, 10:12 PM

#20 (permalink)

Straight

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Posts: 210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

however, when you have odds to draw...even to a gutshot or pp, i will call those minbets very liberally. all i need is a little bit of potential. sometimes even a backdoor nut flush or straight draw will get me to call those things. but you MUST have some potential, or its about the dumbest thing you can do...at lower stakes.

I've started to do this, and I agree with you about it getting me into trouble just trying to pound the better with air. Usually my big losses (beside big hand vs big hand) always seems to be me trying to pound into one of this jokers and getting slammed back when they hit or show their strength in a reraise.

It definitely hurts to stay safe though. :P

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Robb

01-29-2008, 12:24 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

robb, you prolly need to learn to love multiway pots. flush draws, combos, baby straights, sets with flush draws up, are all examples of situations in which i LOVE having many, many customers. they provide such great drawing odds, and such great implied odds.

I love those situations, too, but they're a small fraction of the total hands played. In NL10 FR, I get AA in the cutoff w/3 limpers in, raise 7xBB, and get four callers. Now I'm in a 5-way pot with, if I'm lucky, about 30% equity. The pot is 1/3 max BI, and two of the callers are short-stacked and so have odds to call any bet I make. That's about half the multiway action I see, and even though I'm there with premium hands, I have to hit the flop or fold.

That's why I prefer 6-max. Fewer multiway pots that turn into all-in, short-stacked orgies. Any advice for those FR no foldem holdem games?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i LOVE multi-way pots!! now, repeat that about 100 times and it may start to sink in.

I LOVE MULTIWAY POTS. I LOVE MULTIWAY POTS. i LOVE MULTIWAY POTS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i'm not trying to be an ass

We can all try harder. LoL, chop, you know I don't take offense in the forums. You're probably right that my bad attitude erodes EV in some multiway action. Point taken.

Chopper

01-29-2008, 01:17 AM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

That's why I prefer 6-max. Fewer multiway pots that turn into all-in, short-stacked orgies. Any advice for those FR no foldem holdem games?

dont bluff in them. and, if you catch an aggro behind you, c/r him on about half the flops you connect with, but lead out your monsters about 1/2 - 2/3 pot. it builds pots when he holds something mediocre....the kind of hands they LOVE to push too hard.

i thought about putting the "discaimer" of multiway pots on the QQ+ type hands. lol. figures you'd bring it up. and, yeah youre 100% right. i was thinking more of hands like 67s, ATs, 44. marginal holdings that can punish the entire player pool when they let you into a flop cheaply.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Robb

01-29-2008, 02:49 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

That's why I prefer 6-max. Fewer multiway pots that turn into all-in, short-stacked orgies. Any advice for those FR no foldem holdem games?

I will admit I love the 5-way pots where I have AQs and catch the Q-high flush draw. I'm betting right out 2/3 +, depending upon position and # villains and prior action - and I'm praying for lots of calls with no paired board.

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