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bet out or check-raise w/ set?

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dstir2

06-12-2005, 04:52 PM Post subject: bet out or check-raise w/ set?

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Lawrence, KS

Posts: 144

I have read differing opinions from the books I have read, and wanted to know what some of you all recommend. Say you limp-in w/ pocket pair, hit your set with an all-rag flop. do you bet, slow-play and call, or check-raise? Does your strategy change if the pot had been raised preflop? Are there other factors involved that I haven't mentioned yet? Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

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06-12-2005, 05:23 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,855

If it's a rainbow/ragged flop that was raised by someone in late position...I'll check. I'm hoping that the original raiser bets and I will usually smooth call. I will then bet out about half of the pot on the turn hoping he pushes AI on me. Or, I could possibly check raise there, but I don't want him drawing to another card.

If there is no initial raiser I am betting 3/4 of the pot if I'm first to act. There's no way I'm letting some guy with 46s see a free card with 57T on the board. If you take down the pot right there be happy with it, no reason to let someone catch a better hand on the turn/river and slam you with it.

I've even bet the minimum before if I'm first to act...This can scream out "I'm on a draw" to some, so they'll punch in a pot sized bet on you. Smooth call it, check the next card and they'll punch it again....this is where you check raise.

Best advice I can give? Bet your sets. Do not slow play them because you run the risk of somebody catching and whipping your tail...

evman150

06-12-2005, 08:58 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Victoria BC

Posts: 269

In an unraised pot I'll check. When it's raised if it looks like the raiser would have something ie when you have xx and the flop is AKx (doesn't have to be that blatant though), I'll bet it out hoping to get raised. If there are readily evident draws, you have to bet to avoid free cards.

Also, if the pot is really big, I'd bet out because I'd want to win it right there. If I get raised it's a bonus.

As a rule, be more inclined to bet in a big pot and be more inclined to slowplay in a small pot because you have less to lose and much more to gain.

Light years ahead of the competition.

ensign_lee

06-13-2005, 02:36 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin

Posts: 2,237

The main question to ask here when you hit a set is "what hand is going to pay me off?"

If somebody after you raised preflop and you called to hit your set, then check. Chances are, if they raised, they're going to have a high pocket pair (this is what you want them to have) or they're going to have merely high cards. Either way, you can usually count on them to bet out. If they have a pocket pair, then you raise them on the flop after they bet. From here, don't try another check raise. You are now in control of the hand; continue betting about 3/4's to 4/5's of the pot on both the turn and the river. Just remember to think about what they think that have. If you bet way too strong, they might think their overpair is beat and fold, so remember to calibrate your bet strength according to what you think your opponent will call.

If they had high cards, well...you're not going to get the full value out of your set. But you should still check to them and let them bet. If you bet first, they'll fold anyways. By checking to them, you allow them to give you a few extra chips by bluffing...and who knows? Maybe they'll think you're bluffing and rebluff you. Then, you can call an all in!

However, if you just limped in, it gets a little trickier. The main thing to remember here though is "what hand is going to pay me off". If the flop is connecting rags, you might also have to think "does someone have a straight already?" If you're in early position and someone way after you is aggresive, check to them and let them bet first; they're going to be betting if nobody bets in order to try to take the pot and then you can try to take those extra chips from them. Who knows? They might even have a hand and then you'll get to extract more chips from them! If your entire table is loose passive, well then just bet it out yourself. There's nothing worse than letting a gutshot straight draw complete his draw for free and then paying him off while you think you're value betting your set.

And obviously, if you're in late position and nobody has bet before you, you have to bet. If you're in late position and there is already a bet in front of you with no calls, you should raise to twice their bet and take it from there. If you're in late position and there is a bet in front of you with several calls, you raise it to the size of the pot + the cumulation of everyone's bets/calls. You either want to take that pot down there or you want to isolate. You do NOT want 3 other players continuuing to see the next few cards with you.

If one of them flopped a straight, well...sucks to be you. You still have odds to a full house, so yeah. I cannot never advocate laying down a flopped set. I always lose a set over set battle if I have the lower set and I always lost the set vs straight / flush battle if we both flopped our hands. In the long run, the losses I sustain that way will be more than made up for in the increased profits from betting my sets very hard.

That should just about cover it. Any questions?

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dsaxton

06-13-2005, 03:14 AM

#5 (permalink)

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I pretty much always bet. My objective when leading out is to disguise the strength of my hand, shut out drawing hands (either backdoor or not) and to get into a confrontation with another player who has flopped some sort of a made hand. Basically, I'm trying to maximize profit.

I know that a lot of players like to check-raise, but I think that this is a mistake. Obviously, when you check-raise you run the risk of allowing your opponents a free card, and this is problematic, but more importantly, you're advertising the strength of your hand to opponents with marginal made hands who would have otherwise given you much more action. When I have flopped a set, I want my opponents thinking I have some sort of a marginal made hand to encourage players with weaker holdings to pay me off. I don't want to scare these players away, I want them calling or even raising me (which actually happens with surprising frequency).

DimitriT

06-13-2005, 01:46 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 614

You need to break up a drawing hands after the flop so if the board looks too coordinated, bet.

Otherwise I'll slowplay to build the pot with small bets and calls.

drmcboy

06-13-2005, 01:53 PM

#7 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,601

It's got to be a really awful flop for me to check it, 1062r or something.

a500lbgorilla

06-13-2005, 02:12 PM

#8 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Raggy flop against a standard preflop raise, C/R.

Raggy flop against a stronger preflop raise, bet moderately. Hope to get QQ in call down or aggro mode.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

jalhampsen

06-14-2005, 05:00 AM Post subject: Slow play

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Chicago

Posts: 1

Sometimes I'll slow play a set. If there's not a straight or flush draw you can make top pair think he's got the best hand and check-raise him on the river.[/b]

dsaxton

06-14-2005, 05:56 AM

#10 (permalink)

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You aren't going to win a much larger pot by slow-playing a set, you're only risking losing a big one.

Besides, there are ways of fast-playing monster hands which conceal the actual strength of your hand just as effectively as slow-playing. Don't think that just because you aren't passively check-calling that your opponent has any idea how strong you are. Doing things like leading into a preflop raiser after flopping a set or quads, or raising a preflop raiser the minimum on the flop actually convinces them you're weak a lot of the time, while serving to build the pot. This often allows you to win a huge one, much larger than if you had slow-played.

ChezJ

06-14-2005, 08:06 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

there is so much more information that needs to be taken into account to give a meaningful answer.

what is your position relative to the button?
what is your position relative to the pre flop raiser?
what is his betting style -- passive or aggressive?
what is your table image?
is anyone is paying attention to your table image?
are there other people in the hand?
are they calling stations?
is the flop rainbowed? ragged? coordinated?
is the flop high or low?
etc etc etc

standard plays are okay, but if you want to maximize your profit, you have to think deeper about all the variables and possibilities.

maybe you are on the guy's right and can provoke him to put out a huge raise by betting into him with a wimpy amount that he will interpret as a "feeler" bet and a license to steal.

maybe you are on the guy's left and need to raise him a significant amount to isolate him and dump the potential flush draws.

maybe there was no pre flop raise and your table image is really loose, so an overbet on the flop in late position is likely to be seen as a pot steal and you will get called down.

etc etc etc

ChezJ

Rondavu

06-15-2005, 03:51 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

-Raised pot flop brings your set and possible monster set.....

Check raise for info. You might save some money. You don't want your set of 3's being a one outer to a set of aces with you betting like you're god through all streets. Find out early whether they also flopped a set.

-Raised pot flop brings your set on a rag board....

Bet 1/2 pot to keep them in while looking like you have a cautious top pair. If they reraise then punch it against the high pocket. If they call then bet the same amount on the turn no matter what hits. Now it will be like 1/4 pot. The reason you don't raise your bet on the turn is because if a broadway hits the turn, nothing says made set like disregarding an over against a preflop raiser and betting hard. If another rag hits you still want him hanging around to pay you. Multihanded just take it down quick on coordinated boards.

-Unraised pot with at least one broadway and a draw possibility...

Min bet as if you're drawing, person holding broadway comes over the top. Smooth call and check to them. Let them try to chase you out with another big bet on 4th street. Check raise them. If the board coordinates take it down with a big bet.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

dsaxton

06-15-2005, 07:01 PM

#13 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

For the first situation, a lot of players will check top set, so checking for the purpose of check-raising isn't likely going to be a very effective means of gaining information. Plus, many players will come over the top of a check-raise with a range of hands which are beaten by a set.

That aside, by check-raising with the intent of folding if your opponent shows strength, you're going to be limiting your profit in the likely situation where your opponent has top pair or an overpair since you're going to be slowing this player down, you'll save a decent amount of money in the hugely unlikely situation where you do have a lesser set, and you'll be losing money when you make a few erroneous folds due to your opponent overplaying a pair. So, overall, this doesn't seem like an optimal play since all it does is saves you a little money in a situation which is incredibly unlikely, while costing you money in almost every other situation. It seems sensible to instead concern yourself with maximizing profit in the likeliest situation where your opponent has top pair or an overpair rather than risk scaring these hands off because you're afraid of a higher set.

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