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aka_red

10-26-2009, 01:34 AM Post subject: Bet or Check

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: house

Posts: 903

SB: $200.00
BB: $671.35
UTG: $200.00
UTG+1: $200.00
UTG+2: $187.50
MP1: $193.80
MP2: $200.00
CO: $429.15
Hero (BTN): $200.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BTN with Ts Th
UTG raises to $6, UTG+1 calls $6, 4 folds, Hero calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: ($21.00) 9s Qd 3h (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero ?

BET OR CHECK

DISCUSS.

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clvacva

10-26-2009, 01:55 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 200

Don't wanna value town yourself vs UTG's JJ/QQ
Plus UTG+1 might be trying to c/c with QJ
(Reads stats?)

So I check and pray that there is no Ace,8,K

Micro2Macro

10-26-2009, 02:00 AM

#3 (permalink)

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I think I might actually lean towards betting here.

Yeah I'm aware that is sort of turning TT into a bluff or however some may see it, but JJ won't be in a pretty spot facing heat. Checking will give UTG+1 a decent spot to steal on the turn as well which can complicate things if we check..I think?

"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Outlaw

10-26-2009, 02:05 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,033

Easy bet here.. you might get a call from worse pairs, AK, or a SD. If someone raises, easy fold.

daven

10-26-2009, 05:19 AM Post subject: Re: Bet or Check

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by reDZill4

BET OR CHECK

DISCUSS.

providing zero reads is bad for discussion
both villains unknown is a valid read

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Micro2Macro

10-26-2009, 07:15 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Easy bet here.. you might get a call from worse pairs, AK, or a SD. If someone raises, easy fold.

assuming villains are both 'unknown regs' at 200nl, I don't think we're value betting here. but that's just the assumption I made when I responded.

aka_red

10-26-2009, 07:41 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jyms

{Moved from BC.}

Pretty much just going to be a bunch of conjecture here. Do you really think any quality discussion can come from a post like this? Particularly form the BC where posts are $25NL and under. Funny thing is, even you know this. So why post it?

This is actually intended to start a very important theory discussion between betting marginal hands and checking hands with show down value. Your choice between the two determines what sort of general strategy you choose to have and how it will influence the rest of your poker career. Also this is not short handed, clearly there are 9 players being dealt in. I would like you to move it back to the beginner's circle and delete all the posts after you moved it. Also I do not appreciate this snide comment "Funny thing is, even you know this." which is implying that I know very little. I would guess that I know more than the average viewer/poster on this forum, and would like to be treated as a respected member of this community. I will thank you in advance for the correction to your behavior.

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Stacks

10-26-2009, 11:04 AM

#8 (permalink)

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{moved back to BC}

{posts deleted to get back on track}

I think this hand can bring up some reasonably good discussion, and would like to see the thread evolve. As I think it can help quite a few members here in the BC. Everyone is welcome to comment, just please keep it on topic and as helpful as possible.

Belt

10-26-2009, 11:37 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2007

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Posts: 95

Well we have a hand that has showdown value. I don't see any reason to bluff with it in a three way pot. I would check it back.

tuuk2

10-26-2009, 11:56 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

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I'd bet here thinking that I had the best hand. If I got c/r, I'd have to fold depending on the size of the raise. For example, I'd call if they c/r the min. That would also change if one c/r and the other called. Then I'd have to think my 10s were no good. Especially at the microstakes.

If I got called on my bet by one player, I'd put them on A-K or similar.

dranger7070

10-26-2009, 07:03 PM

#11 (permalink)

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dranger7070 has a little shameless behaviour in the past

Depends on the villain's postflop tendencies. If they are unknown, I'm more apt to bet then check since I don't want to be playing a guessing game on the turn/river.

aka_red

10-26-2009, 07:26 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dranger7070

I'm more apt to bet then check since I don't want to be playing a guessing game on the turn/river.

I hate to break it to you but your still going to play a guessing game on the turn and river, although it is going to be different guessing game.

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Vinland

10-26-2009, 07:35 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Vinland is an unknown quantity at this point

3 tone flop, fairly unconnected so only worried about a few straight draws...100bb stacks, I check...
I don't want to build a big pot with mid pair. If UTG bets turn, and UTG+1 folds, I am willing to call.
Its a tough decision either way for me....check or bet. I usually find that in the micros, if a player has a good (TP or Overpair) but not a monster hand, they will usually bet at it which makes me think that in this case, UTG has probably missed....however, I still keep the pot small and hope no other overcard comes.

I confess in quicksand

JoeHaw

10-26-2009, 08:30 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

UTG not betting here pretty much guarantees that he missed or flopped a set imo- , UTG+1 is a lot of lower pps and sc's, I don't think he necessarily bets KQ or AQ here (maybe im wrong there) but for the most part I think we're a favorite in this hand at this point, but at the same time I don't think we get value out of anything we beat (at least not at the micros, dunno bout 200nl) except maybe JTs? I think betting is best because there's plenty of cards we don't want to see on turn or river and taking it down here isn't bad (especially if opponents fold JJ here). If we get a call give up/ try to get to sd?

daven

10-26-2009, 11:17 PM Post subject: Re: Bet or Check

#15 (permalink)

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Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by reDZill4

BET OR CHECK

DISCUSS.

providing zero reads is bad for discussion
both villains unknown is a valid read

so, red, any reads coming?

and obviously any play is correct, depending on how you play the rest of your range etc i guess we'll start to talk about post-flop aggression frequency, style, and more.
Just let me know if there are reads or not, I'm interested in writing a fairly long post on this.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

oskar

10-27-2009, 01:26 AM

#16 (permalink)

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The only information that you provide about the villains is that it's 200NL FR and they both likely have auto-reload on - which is something, but won't help anyone at the BC.
Without reads I really don't think this is an interesting spot at all. I don't think it really matters if you check behind or bet. Betting is very thin value, some protection, and some widening your range in these spots to make yourself harder to play against - hardly relevant at 5NL.
Checking is good for pot control and can't be a big mistake either because neither of them can really have more than 6 outs here - if they did they'd prolly bet... which is also not true at lower levels. and you're not getting c/called by much worse... And if one of them bets on a blank turn I'd be... surprised.

I predict this thread will be a lot of pointless rambling.

Again... without reads and ranges this is pointless... why even post positions? a microstakes player will have completely different ideas of what people open from UTG and what UTG+1 will call with, and rightly so because the positional awareness changes a lot when you move up in stakes.

Cougar

10-29-2009, 12:05 AM

#17 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: Pennsylvania

Posts: 121

Been working hard on ABCD theory, so bear with me...

This seems to hit us squarely in the "B" category, where we would like to "play passively and pot control".

Understand we have a good shot at taking this down with a bet, but how many hands that we are behind do we actually fold out?

A week ago I bet this because I don't want to be in weird positions on the turn/river.

Today think I vote to check based on my more recent thinking (still developing).

Criticisms are welcome!

------------------------
"...only time you stop learning is when your own ignorance & arrogance stops you from doing so!" -Martin Pritchett

al yell

10-29-2009, 04:14 AM

#18 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Posts: 515

My two cents...

I'd b/f Flop and b/f any 8, T, J, Q, K on Turn HU if checked to. If I get two callers on Flop and it checked back around to me I'd prob shut down short of turning of a set.

When Push Comes To Shove

rong

10-29-2009, 11:32 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,196

New to ring games, so my thoughts may be worthless, but I'm betting approx $15 here, folding to a raise. Thougts being I may well take this down here, and with one caller I may well take this down with a 2nd shot at it if called by a draw that doesn't hit. We have position and our range could of hit this in many ways ie AQ, KQ, TJ and sets.

I'm double barreling any turn card if checked to me if there was only one caller. 2 callers and I'm hoping for a T or J or I'm c/f.

River, If my 2nd barrel is called I'm c/f unless I've imporved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.

Fucking. Retarded.

Silly String

10-29-2009, 05:06 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Location: KC, MO

Posts: 1,434

Put me in the B/F camp here. Pot control turn, and I may bet good rivers vs UTG+1. I can get thin calls by throwing out a flop "position bet" and I am now leading the hand allowing me to control the turn action. I plan to get 1 street of value from UTG and 1-2 streets from UTG+1 depending on the turn/riv cards.

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

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