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littleogre
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01-28-2006, 08:14 PM
Post subject: Best way to play ak with a raise infront of you?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Some people like to just call the raise and others like to reraise to the point of going all in assuring that they will get to see all the cards. I think both plays have there place but how do you decide which is the correct play for any given situation. Personally the percentage of my stack it will cost me to call is important to me. I mean if i have 5 bucks on the table and it's gona cost me 3 to call i think it is wrong to cold call and hope to hit a ace or king on the flop.
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freechus9
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: IN UR BOX HAXXING UR FILEZ
Posts: 1,000
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If you have 5 on the table and a preflop bet is 3, then you have two problems. One, you are shortstacking yourself and minimizing your profits. Two, if it is a small buy in game, then the raise is so big that you are probably beaten anyway with AK, and a good chance you are a slight dog.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by freechus9
If you have 5 on the table and a preflop bet is 3, then you have two problems. One, you are shortstacking yourself and minimizing your profits. Two, if it is a small buy in game, then the raise is so big that you are probably beaten anyway with AK, and a good chance you are a slight dog.
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Ok lets say it is a $5 buy in game and i happen to have exactly $5 when utg+3 has lets 8 bucks All the players before him just limp for 10c the size of the bb He raises 3 bucks and it folded around to me on the button. I ave Ak i can do one of the following.
A fold
B call
C raise all in
We know enough about utg+3 to assume he has either ak,aq,aj, or a pair likely 9 or better. We have no idea how big his hand is he could have AA as well as 1010. What is the best course of action ?
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freechus9
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: IN UR BOX HAXXING UR FILEZ
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I don't know.. a 30xbb raise is pretty big.. Though at these limits it's not uncommon to see people playing KJs like this. I'd push hoping that I wouldn't be up against a pair. If you are, you are either dominated or a dog.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok well i guess the question i'm really trying to ask is once you decide you are gona play and eliminated folding as an option what factors to you use to determine wether to call or raise?
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natdang
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 380
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Suited and in position, I'd call it, otherwise, I think I'm letting it go.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Why does it matter if you're in position or not? It's 3/5 of your stack. You're pretty much priced in.
If you don't want to fold, you have to push.
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Quote:
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I ave Ak i can do one of the following.
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"Humberto say all in!!!!"
Push babay push.
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Blinky
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: nutpeddlers anonymous
Posts: 459
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Ogre, your example is horribly screwed because of the stack sizes.
This is a push-or-fold situation and with the stacks as it is, it's a clear fold. Opp obviously has a hand. You have a negative expectation against ANY pair - the only things you're beating are AQ and AJ which is only being raised for 60% of buyin (!) by a maniac.
Screw it. Don't gamble. Play some solid cards (or poker...).
Put it this way - you have a stack of $50,000. Do you push AI with AK against an opponent who just raised preflop $30k?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
We will not support your pocket pair aggression.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Blinky
Ogre, your example is horribly screwed because of the stack sizes.
...
Put it this way - you have a stack of $50,000. Do you push AI with AK against an opponent who just raised preflop $30k?
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How is that example any better? We've only changed the stakes, not the stack sizes.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Under most circumstances, I am calling a standard preflop raise with AK. There are circumstances to reraise and there are circumstances to fold. Like most things in NLHE, it depends.
Unimproved on the flop, AK is trash. Play it as such.
Improved, you really have to go from there. TPTK (especially connecting the ace) is a strong hand that beats the vast majority of hands on the flop, but it's usually not a hand you want to go to the felt with if you have even somewhat deep stacks.
If you hit better than TPTK, like top two, or trips top kicker, then you are really looking at a strong hand. Boats, the nut straight/nut flush are also obviously huge hands and should be played as such...
However, I generally like to stay away from a reraise preflop with AK because:
1) If a lot of money goes in the pot when you have AK, you are often beat.
2) You are building a pot with a strong hand, but a hand that misses the majority of the flops. Remember what I said about AK unimproved being trash? It's absolutely true. Note however that if you hold 1 ace and 1 king, the mathematical card combinations for both AA and KK are cut in half for your opponents. Against some, this means something. Others, it means squat.
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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fold that shiznit buddy
especially out of position and especially if its not suited and especially if its not a multiway pot.
youre either gonna hit an A or K and scare away all the weak hands or you're gonna miss and fold or you're gonna hit an A or K and be up against a set of A's or Ks.
most of the time you'll miss and fold. sometimes you'll hit an ace and outkick some guy's AQ, but you won't make much money doing that.
if its a loose raiser, you can re-raise him and take the momentum of the hand away from him, but you don't want a a call. you just use AK because its not completely worthless if your opponent does call.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok but if it is gona cost you 1/2 your stack or more to call aren't folding or pushing your only 2 real options? I mean you can call 3 then be forced to fold if you don't hit a pair or you can spend the extra 2 bucks a freeroll the rest of the hands. So i guess the real question would be is it worth that 2 bucks to guarantee seeing the turn and river?
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Blinky
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: nutpeddlers anonymous
Posts: 459
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Hrm can't seem to post correctly...
Sejie, I know my example sucks. What I'm trying to illustrate is that pushing with AKo into this situation is out and out gambling - and we play poker (heh), not gamble (heh). In any game I think one has to put value on the chips being tossed around, and sometimes increasing the values to "scary" values helps illustrate a point.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
We will not support your pocket pair aggression.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok let me just say one thing as i feel i have confused some people into thinking i will just shove in in the spot 100 percent of the time . That is not the case at all. As matter of fact i would fold more times then not with the lack of dead money in the pot but if i did decide to gamble it up i'm going all in. Us ogre's don't like to flat call 2/3 of our stack then fold when we miss the flop. I would and i could be wrong please tell me rank the choices in the following order.
Best choice fold neutral ev
2nd best choice push likely -ev
worst coice call -ev and plus even if you hit a k or A you may only get called by a better hand. Plus thats just plain weak who wants to play weak poker. I guess i should have been more clear. Lets pretend you are not allowed to fold you must play So your choices are call or push . We know pushing is probably wrong but i cant see any way that flat calling could ever be right. I mean if im gona gamble it up i want to see all the cards plus by going all in he may even fold 1 out off 10000000 times 
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samsonite2100
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
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Yes, calling is bad. Push/fold, but I think fold. Betting 3/5 of your stack PF implies a PP, probably a high one. Why bet your whole stack on a situation where you're not favored?
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Seabass
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: trying not to die
Posts: 205
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If the question is if its ever right to cold call ak for 60% of your stack and fold on the flop unimproved then the awnser is: No.
Its a matter of odds.
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Check your pot odds. Guess his range. Then choose push or fold.
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 38.3777 % 38.06% 00.32% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 61.6223 % 61.31% 00.32% { JJ+ }
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 65.3246 % 65.06% 00.27% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 34.6754 % 34.41% 00.27% { random }
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 54.9102 % 50.82% 04.09% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 45.0898 % 41.00% 04.09% { 22+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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in agame with no blinds the first person to open without the nuts is a poor player.
in a short stack game the first player t cold call ithout the nuts is the same.
I always advocate a cold call with AK and still will.
To call 3 of a 5 stack without the nuts sint good imo. Either raise all in and take the flip or fold.
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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Having read none of the replies so far, here's my take.
I'm not really much of a guy for calling preflop with anything that isn't a pocket pair / suited connector. If the guy's a tight player (and especially if he has position on me like when I'm in the blinds, for instance), I'll fold my AKo. If he's tight pre-flop and postflop, and I'm confident that he doesn't have AA KK or QQ, I'll attempt to outplay him postflop by reraising hard here and then betting the flop. If I hit an A or K, good for me. If not, hopefully he doesn't have anything and I've scared him by reraising. Another good aspect of reraising is that if he does actually have me beat, he'll reraise me again more often than not, in which case I can comfortably lay my AKo down.
Against a LAG, I'll probably reraise, because I like to bust LAG's asses. But folding against them isn't a horrible option either. Calling is the worst thing you can do since if you catch, he's likely not to pay you off and if you don't catch, then you've lost your investment in the pot by calling.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I usually re-raise a raise with AK to narrow the field to a possible heads-up. If the re-raise is made by a short stack, I will re-raise for most of their chips. This tells the rest of the table that I have a hand that I'm willing to flip over pre-flop.
I'n a ring game of even stacks, this is not an all-in call or push pre-flop. In a tournee, pros often say that ones tournament will be determined by whether or not they win or lose with AK.
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Online players have gotten so enamored with AK that they play it like it is already a made hand. I think alot of that thinking has come from all the fish watching too much WPT where they make AK out to be the be all end all.
You have to take position into account of course. However, don't fall in love with AK. I have seen so many online players bust out with AK going allin preflop when they could have saved the majority of their stack by dumping it post-flop when they miss. And they do miss.... more often than not.
Remember, AK is a nice starting hand but IT IS NOT A MADE HAND. Don't get carried away.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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