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Off5th
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06-09-2006, 08:30 PM
Post subject: Best time to bet hard on draws
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ewa Beach
Posts: 180
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I've recently read Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book" and theres one article where he mentions the "Biggest Online Winner". This player would overbet all his premium draws and nuts and there would be no way of stopping him from eventually winning according to Gordon. The only problem about this is that your swings will be a lot higher. So with that said, while playing at passive tables 6max or full, while having a premium draw ( flush draw with 2 overcards or oesd w/ flush draw) do you guys think its a good idea to check raise the flop or turn and get more money in the pot. If he only holds AK tptk then your pot equity will be better than his if you play your hands (flush draw, oesd, set, or even flopped nuts) the same way all the time by creating a big pot. Discuss....
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i play draws like sets unless i think opp has me beat/will get all in with his hand vs my draw.
In other cases i build the pot early and follow up hard on other streets with or without a monster.
My experience points to the fact that most players wont carry on here without a big hand (unless theyre a station in which case they're are better way to play hands) or unless they might be drawing too in which case you pwn when the draw hits or bluff a river they cant call.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I play draws like made hands when i am in position, and I play draws extremely passively out of position. I will very often checkfold an 8 out draw on the flop if I am playing out of the blinds.
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Lukie
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06-10-2006, 12:30 AM
Post subject: Re: Best time to bet hard on draws
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#4 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Off5th
I've recently read Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book" and theres one article where he mentions the "Biggest Online Winner". This player would overbet all his premium draws and nuts and there would be no way of stopping him from eventually winning according to Gordon. The only problem about this is that your swings will be a lot higher. So with that said, while playing at passive tables 6max or full, while having a premium draw ( flush draw with 2 overcards or oesd w/ flush draw) do you guys think its a good idea to check raise the flop or turn and get more money in the pot. If he only holds AK tptk then your pot equity will be better than his if you play your hands (flush draw, oesd, set, or even flopped nuts) the same way all the time by creating a big pot. Discuss....
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The problem with phil's argument (I don't have the book, but I've read about this particular passage), is that he is setting all the assumptions. Phil sets your exact hole cards, the board, and villain's exact range. And he says that if you call here, you will always lose in the long run. But it's based on HIS assumptions.
The player he is referring to is Mahatma, aka Prahlad Friedman. His style isn't unbeatable, he's just better then most of the players he plays with.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I play draws like made hands when i am in position, and I play draws extremely passively out of position. I will very often checkfold an 8 out draw on the flop if I am playing out of the blinds.
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MP limps, SB completes, you check with J9o. Flop 8Txr. You're check/folding this? If so, that's bad.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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no
i am checkfolding to big bets.
I don't like making implied odds calls with draws out of position, because I will often be shut out on the turn, and even if I do make my hand, I am going to have a hard time getting it paid off.
EDIT: in your scenario i am betting the flop with the likelihood of taking it down without a contender. BUT I am not making any calls outside my pot odds if I get raised. I make the bet based on a +EV that I can take the pot down + the chance that I am called but make my hand.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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lead?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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i added something
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i added something
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im potting that flop with the oesd strong tp, set two pair.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
lead?
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I lead out quite a lot here.
Calling stations who hit top pair are gonna pay off your value bets quite often when you hit.
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